I hope the Writing doesn't remain like it did from Post 5.0 to Now (post 6.0)

[SaberMaxwell]

I don't hate Emet-Selch, but I don't understand the rabid fan appeal he has. He's a great character, just not one I particularly like.

The appeal for many is probably "I can fix him."

[Iscah]

I think Emet is such a fundamental part of the story of FF14 as a whole that if you don't like him then you probably just don't like the story that much overall.

I disagree. He's still just one part of a larger story – as I wrote earlier, I came out of Shadowbringers loving all of the other story threads: our rekindled friendship with Raha, an increased focus on the Scions (finally some decent screentime for Urianger), and our connection with Ardbert. Emet only ever felt like the villain driving this plot along, until eventually it became clear that the writers intended him to be seen in a different way to how I was seeing him and I don't think it was conveyed well at all.

Some important characters are meant to be disliked, though.

True, but Emet isn't presented as someone you're meant to dislike, particularly once you get past 5.0 and into things like the side stories. Neither does it seem that any of the fanbase regard him as a "love to hate him" character who is popular for being a wicked villain.

He's treated as a tragic hero and lauded for trying to reach out to us despite being on opposite sides, which isn't what it feels like to me at all.

I have to wonder how many people actually replay the story, and how many go through it once and let the ending of Shadowbringers reframe how they remember Emet acting towards us, thinking he was more open than he actually was.

A big part of Emet's appeal is that he's the first, and only Ascian to actually talk to us.

Sure he did, but in a condescending manner, and clearly only ever telling us the parts of the truth that suited him and wouldn't derail his private plans. He was smug about the fact that he was plotting something secret, enforced himself on our group, vanished again when it suited him while potentially getting us in deep trouble... That's not talking to us, that's just plotting and scheming in the open instead of the dark, utterly confident that we won't catch on to his actual intent before it's too late.

By that point, even his saving Y'shtola didn't feel like proof he's genuinely helpful, just another way to keep us constantly off-guard and confused about his true motive.

The closest he gets to honesty is that one moment at the Ladder where he starts getting all nostalgic about Amaurot, but he still turns it into an "I'm explicitly keeping secrets from you" moment by making the remark about us not remembering, then refusing to elaborate when we question it.

[Cleretic]

I understand where people that dislike him come from, though. I guess my point is that I think it's just very unfortunate that you ended up disliking one of the most important characters .

Yeah, it sucks! But it's less because Emet is really pervasive of pivotal to the story as a person--I know I can mostly omit him from all of it, and it doesn't really matter much. Hell, Elpis actually helps with that, because it means Emet doesn't have to be the primary contact point for anything about his story; I can reference Elpis and Pandaemonium for Ancient stuff, I can reference... well, any other Ascian for Ascian stuff, and I can reference the copious amount of stuff on the Empire for Solus stuff.

What actually sucks is that conversation about him is so pervasive, and so counter to negative discussion about him. For comparison, I'd ballpark that the least popular MSQ villain in the game is Thordan, just by the fact I've never seen someone actually express liking him. But if you hate Thordan, that's never gonna come up, in game or out; once Thordan's dead he's abundantly dead, he never comes back, and nobody's really around talking him up, or saying he's actually super important to everything, or defending him as actually being the hero, or shipping him with the WoL, or writing elaborate fanfiction about him. If you want to play FFXIV, but don't want to talk about Thordan, nobody will force you to. But all that stuff's present for Emet, conversation around the game is constantly going back to this character, and going back so lovingly.

It's not a good feeling to constantly be dragged into everyone talking positively about a character you have nothing but negative feelings about. It especially sucks when both feelings are actually valid, but the sheer volume of strong talk about one drowns out the other; we're not wrong for not liking Emet or thinking he's a bad guy, he's a monster and thinking that about him is absolutely valid, but it sure doesn't feel like you're allowed to sometimes.

[Cassar]

It's not a good feeling to constantly be dragged into everyone talking positively about a character you have nothing but negative feelings about. It especially sucks when both feelings are actually valid, but the sheer volume of strong talk about one drowns out the other; we're not wrong for not liking Emet or thinking he's a bad guy, he's a monster and thinking that about him is absolutely valid, but it sure doesn't feel like you're allowed to sometimes.

I can definitely see your point. I will add though, just because the character is written to be a monster, it doesn't necessarily mean- Actually, as I'm writing this, I feel I need to ask: do you (and everyone else who dislikes Emet) dislike him because you think he's a bad guy, or because you think he's just not well written? Because I feel I've had the wrong impression this whole time.

A character that always comes to mind in this context is Asahi. Asahi is written to be by far the most unlikeable and despicable person to ever exist, and yet I still love his character (in terms of how he's written) and the role he plays in the story.

[Denishia]

As someone who dislikes him more than Zenos (used to be a tight race but the way Zenos’s boring ennui and single-focused battle high was worked into Endwalker’s multiple examinations of finding purpose and combating depression, his continued plot existence finally started to satisfy me when even Zenos’s introduction scene had me groaning with boredom) - I’d say Emet isn’t the best-written character but he isn’t badly written or shallow. But the writing does stumble personally in ways that has been articulated by others: he is only given a small rebuttal at the climax of 6.0 and his direct hands on culpability for the numerous Garlean evils is painfully glossed over by never having him interact with any Garlean but Varis and none of their direct victims- we don’t even get to tell Jullus or Drussila the true mastermind behind their suffering. And the Allagans and his culpability a light touch as well. 6.1 helped to reenforce the narrative presence of Eulmore and that the horrible place of Soylent-Green Meol exploitation under Vauthry wasn’t what Eulmore had been like decades after the Flood of Light and was another horror to lay at Emet’s feet.

But also that I didn’t find him funny. He wasn’t fun to hate like Nabriales or Asashi and he wasn’t wrong but still pitiably sympathetic like Ilberd or Nidhogg. Fandaniel? Fantastic. But Emet was the vile two-faced lie by omission and blindness that only his goals mattered - but unlike Elidibus there was very little wiggle room allowed for a range of negative player reaction to him. And that type of enemies to lovers power fantasy that the “our WoL is Azem so the villain cares for us not on our own merits or that his bigotry is wrong but he decides we’re the exception that doesn’t count in the dehumanization” - it gets into the specific version of that type of Chosen One trope I bounce off of instead of enjoy.

The writing assumes I don’t find his presence annoying at best but likes him- same as why DRK 30-50 is one of my least favorite job quest lines because it requires the player character to have been annoyed with ARR and not enjoy the player fantasy that those fetch quests fulfill for the emotional narrative beat to work and make Fray resonate.

Also as aesthetically unpleasant as Valens. At least while I think most of the Garlean armor isn’t that cool or appealing to look at, the Hydrus model is better than Zenos’s suit. So Valens at least has a decent body design. Emet is just ugly with a character appropriate if meh outfit. And the Elpis look is so hilariously on the nose with the meme-tastic ugly Xenohart clone that it’s just laughable.

[Turnintino]

I agree with a lot of that. And I'll also concede that it's ultimately a much simpler issue for me at the end of the day: I just find him incredibly grating lol. His endless smarminess, his painfully transparent attempts at manipulation that the narrative allows no room but to fall for, his eternally smug face, his bottomless hypocrisy and utter lack of self-awareness that makes every interaction with him all the more frustrating because it's never properly resolved... The list goes on. All that combined to make the suddenly sympathetic bent of his arc's climax in Shadowbringers all the harder to swallow, and certainly not without leaving an awful taste in my mouth.

Now, I think any handful of those things can still make for a compelling and entertaining villain, but all together it was a bridge too far to be fun or enjoyable -- for me. This is as much about his characterization as it is about the writing that surrounds him, which, as Denishia said, stumbles as it approaches the finish line... And then Endwalker picks up where its predecessor left off, with the assumption that it was successful in endearing him to everyone. While I was left to roll my eyes at every narration and appearance lol.

[Cilia]

... [D]o you (and everyone else who dislikes Emet) dislike him because you think he's a bad guy, or because you think he's just not well written? Because I feel I've had the wrong impression this whole time.

I can't speak for anyone else, but...

Personally I don't like him because the story kind of forces you (or at least your character) to sympathize with him, while simultaneously glossing over the fact he's wrought the same death and destruction on the reflections and Source he condemns Hydaelyn for several times over. I think Y'shtola tells him off once in the Ocular, but other than that nobody ever brings up his raging hypocrisy even after the fact (since we only learn that in Amaurot and he dies shortly thereafter). The smarmy attitude I can deal with - affable or not, he's still an antagonist and it suits him - but the fact he's responsible for countless deaths and the destruction of who knows how many civilizations, whines about how unfair the end of his own was, and the story still assumes we were best buddies with him (to the point we summon his soul twice with the Azem stone, and our attitude when first arriving on Elpis immediately picks up when we hear his voice) really rubs me the wrong way.

The fact lots of people declared the Ascians to have done nothing wrong in the wake of the half-truths he provided really didn't help either.

Emet-Selch is pretty well-written and a good person on a personal level, but that doesn't change the fact his methods (if not quite his end goals) are nothing short of horrific.

I enjoy his character, in the sense that he's the smarmy antagonist plotting just behind your back but trying to force the "not bad just misunderstood" angle didn't quite work for me. Not a fan of the tsundere attitude either.

[Brightamethyst]

Personally I don't like him because the story kind of forces you (or at least your character) to sympathize with him, while simultaneously glossing over the fact he's wrought the same death and destruction on the reflections and Source he condemns Hydaelyn for several times over.

You don't have to agree with someone to sympathize with them. Understanding doesn't automatically mean acceptance. You can feel sorry that he has a tragic backstory while still agreeing that he's a villain and needs to be stopped.

[Cleretic]

I can definitely see your point. I will add though, just because the character is written to be a monster, it doesn't necessarily mean- Actually, as I'm writing this, I feel I need to ask: do you (and everyone else who dislikes Emet) dislike him because you think he's a bad guy, or because you think he's just not well written? Because I feel I've had the wrong impression this whole time.

A character that always comes to mind in this context is Asahi. Asahi is written to be by far the most unlikeable and despicable person to ever exist, and yet I still love his character (in terms of how he's written) and the role he plays in the story.

The very first point I make in my video about why I don't like Emet (it's over here and I stand by all my points) is that I don't think that he's badly-written. Hell, I'd probably hate him less if he was, because I find it really easy to dismiss and forget about something I recognize as badly-written. I don't think he's a masterpiece of writing, and that video is largely built around the fact that Fandaniel is just a better-executed version of him from a structural perspective, but I don't think he's badly written.

I think he's a monster and don't find him sympathetic mostly because of that, but get really annoyed at both the game and its community assuming it's earned the sympathy from me that his story needs to function. And it really just hasn't, because I can't be sympathetic towards someone who's unapologetically responsible for the things Emet is.

Fortunately, the game doesn't actually need you to be sympathetic towards him in the long-term; the story still functions, it's just that a number of Emet scenes fall flat and hit wrong notes.

[Cilia]

You don't have to agree with someone to sympathize with them. Understanding doesn't automatically mean acceptance. You can feel sorry that he has a tragic backstory while still agreeing that he's a villain and needs to be stopped.

Which would be a fair point - if the story let you get away with it.

When you finally meet Emet-Selch in phantom Amaurot you have the option of telling him you showed up to stop him or to save G'raha. Going with the former will have him go on a tirade about how unfair it is the Ascians are painted as villains for their actions, and he monologues so long nobody thinks to call him out on the hypocrisy of it all. (Alphinaud just reaffirms their resolve.)

By my measure he is a tragic and pitiable character, just not in the way the narrative presents him as being.