How DPS complexity can make healers more forgiving

[Shurrikhan]

Banish > Banish brings nothing to the table at all.

It brings mobility, just as having two charges of Banish, each on a 10s CD, does...

You can argue whether that's needed/wanted, but it's not as if it's taking up a second button to hit Banish a second time, as your earlier complaint seemed to be.

[Sebazy]

It brings mobility, just as having two charges of Banish, each on a 10s CD, does...

You can argue whether that's needed/wanted, but it's not as if it's taking up a second button to hit Banish a second time, as your earlier complaint seemed to be.

I think you're missing my point.

What does Banish > Banish offer over Banish > Ablution? The way I'm reading it, there's absolutely no reason to double Banish given that the combo removes the MP cost from Ablution and as far as I can tell, neither have a cast time? The same can be said for Ablution > Banish, there's close to zero reason to ever do that.

Thus as far as I see it, you'd only ever either either mash 4x Ablution or Banish > Ablution > Banish > Ablution (Depending on the current MP economy and how free your Thin Air charges are I guess). 4x Ablutions is is a ton of DPS and HPS whilst also retaining full mobility over the course of those 4 GCDs. Throw PI and Thin Air into the picture and it's more than I think is sensible tbh.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say by the second button paragraph though sorry. I'm not trying to imply that a 1 - 2 button combo is problematic, that's certainly not a reason to Banish > Banish. But rather that the two abilities don't really justify having their own individual buttons as it stands. Thus I think it might be better to either streamline them into a single button combo or diversify the two abilities some more.

To be clear, overall I like the idea. The retribution gauge turning Glare into a temporary 2 step combo is exactly the sort of trick SE have been missing IMO. Ren's comment about gauge clutter really only stands with the visually cluttered full size WHM gauge. The compact gauge solves this pain point NP if you ask me.

[ty_taurus]

I think you're missing my point.

What does Banish > Banish offer over Banish > Ablution? The way I'm reading it, there's absolutely no reason to double Banish given that the combo removes the MP cost from Ablution and as far as I can tell, neither have a cast time? The same can be said for Ablution > Banish, there's close to zero reason to ever do that.

Thus as far as I see it, you'd only ever either either mash 4x Ablution or Banish > Ablution > Banish > Ablution (Depending on the current MP economy and how free your Thin Air charges are I guess). 4x Ablutions is is a ton of DPS and HPS whilst also retaining full mobility over the course of those 4 GCDs. Throw PI and Thin Air into the picture and it's more than I think is sensible tbh.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say by the second button paragraph though sorry. I'm not trying to imply that a 1 - 2 button combo is problematic, that's certainly not a reason to Banish > Banish. But rather that the two abilities don't really justify having their own individual buttons as it stands. Thus I think it might be better to either streamline them into a single button combo or diversify the two abilities some more.

To be clear, overall I like the idea. The retribution gauge turning Glare into a temporary 2 step combo is exactly the sort of trick SE have been missing IMO. Ren's comment about gauge clutter really only stands with the visually cluttered full size WHM gauge. The compact gauge solves this pain point NP if you ask me.

Actually I was imagining you would still spend the MP. I mentioned this with a response to Roe, but that probably got lost in a longer post. What I meant by "Free" was independent of cooldown and charges. But like I said, it's really just a first draft, so taking that idea and trying to build upon it is something I'm entirely open to if we were to refine it further.

[Sebazy]

Aah oki, that makes more sense then.

[Renathras]

Playing PotD, I do like doing it on WAR (though part of this may just be...WAR), but the 1-2-3 feels better than RDM's Dualcast or...ugh...BLM, which is the worst Job for running that aside from, apparently AST (so say the tier lists from the speed runners, anyway).

Something about the quick *twack* as you run around that's enjoyable. I haven't tried it with MCH, but it got me to thinking...I wonder if we could give a healer a 1-2-3 with no cast times, like MCH's combo. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but more an in passing thing. But I'm kind of thinking that SGE could do something like that. Why specifically SGE? Lasers. I mean, legit, it could have a ranged autoattack (for what that's worth) but instead of cast times on the spells, have its attacks be instant casts but with combo actions.

...so now I kinda want to take MCH's kit, cut some bits of it out, and tinker with that as a basis for pew pew laser healer. Hm... I do like SGE's casts, but if it had a 1-2-3 (use the three versions of Dosis, the tiny lasers then the medium lasers, then the big lasers). I dunno, might could work. Just have to think of the rest of the kit. Granted, it doesn't need to be "just MCH with a Medica spell", so it wouldn't have all those buttons (Drill, Air Anchor, Chainsaw, Gauss Round, Ricochet, Reassemble, Wildfire...), but I might could take some ques from that to make something interesting...

EDIT:

Here's what I threw together:

Start by taking MCH.

Add in Healer Role essentials.

Remove over-APM (healers need weave room for oGCD spells, similar argument to GNB needing room to weave defensive CDs)

Cast time spells:

Diagnosis
Prognosis
Raise
Esuna (if not combined with Diagnosis)
Pneuma

Instant cast spells

Eukrasia
Eukrasia Diagnosis
Eukrasia Prognosis

Instant cast Weaponskills

Dosis [D1]
Dosis 2 [D2]
Dosis 3 [D3]
(placeholder names)
Plegma
Dyskrasia
Toxicon

oGCDs

Healing:
Kardia
Pankardia
Durochole
Ixochole
Karachole
Panhamia
Rhizomata
Icarus
Soteria

Damage:
Gauss Round
(placeholder name)


Rotation:

Dosis -> Dosis 2 -> Dosis 3
This is your Heated Split, Slug, Clean Shot filler rotation. Trigger Kardia for some amount of healing. 300, 330, 360 damage (combo actions), the latter two do only 200 damage if not used as combo actions.

Plegma
This is basically your Chain Saw. AOE GCD with a CD. 20, 30, 40, 60 sec…not sure the best CD here. Maybe 2 charges, maybe not? And for the love of god, give it a 25y range.

Dyskrasia -> Toxicon
This is a 1-2 AOE combo (like Tanks have; I realize MCH doesn’t, but roll with it). 160 and 180 potency, Toxicon only does 100 if not used as a combo action. Note that the single target spells are instant cast now, so Toxicon isn’t needed for that. This is your Overpower/Mythril Tempest, etc standard 1-2 combo. Granted, a lot of DPS have a ONE button AOE “rotation”, but let’s go with it.

Pneuma
60 sec CD, this is Requiescat, for lack of a better way of doing it. It boosts the power of the next 5 weaponskills within 15 seconds. Roll with it. Does an AOE heal, but Zoe doesn’t exist anymore. Your one cast time attack, though you could Swiftcast it if necessary due to movement. This also opens your burst phase. Could be 120, but I personally feel anything I can’t press every 60 sec or less kinda sucks and doesn’t really justify existing as a button.

Gauss Round
oGCD weave attack with a relatively low potency (80? 100? Somewhere in there) and 30 sec CD. Using Pneuma and any abilities triggering the Pneuma effect (the 5 attacks within 15 sec after it) reduces the CD of Gauss Round by 15 sec. Sure, I’m ripping this straight form MCH. DEAL WITH IT. Note this also would work with the AOE rotation since Pneuma doesn’t care if you’re doing single target or AOE. Maybe this should be an AOE attack that does the potency then 50% falloff to surrounding targets? I dunno, open to idea. Could have the buttons change to “Eukrasia ____” like how MCH used to change from regular shots to Heated shots, but…that’s probably unnecessary (and Eukrasia Dyskrasia might be confusing, as might these buttons NOT interacting with the Eukrasia button).

.

Filler Rotation is D1, D2, D3 on repeat, use Plegma on CD, then Pneuma on CD, squeeze in (ideally) two Plegmas then a D1/D2/D3 combo, completely with Gauss Rounds plugging away in between them. Remember: Doses have no cast times, so you can oGCD weave those Gauss Rounds and, if needed, heals.

AOE Rotation is the same thing, we’re just subbing in D1/2/3 for Dys/Tox combos.

.

Could have a “battery gauge” type thing, but I’m not sure how to work that in OR what to connect it to. Pneuma is basically Hypercharge + Wildfire here. Dosis combo average damage is equal to casting Dosis 3x today. Might have to adjust something up to make up for the missing DoT damage, since the DoT isn’t here.

Idea for Rhizomata: Grants one Addersgall; guarantees next ability used is a critical hit. Could be interesting for both healing and damage…but I feel like this would in practice just be used for damage. Reassemble with a nudge. CD 55 sec.

Pankardia is an AOE Kardia for 10 seconds on a 60 sec CD. Figure it out.

Hamia is removed. Panhamia now is a 60 second CD and only has 4 stacks. Figure it out. Maybe Hamia is low level and upgrades to Panhamia (reduce it’s effect to be Panhamia on a single target, the upgrade makes it AOE but keeps the same potency).

Holos doesn’t have a heal, just barrier and mitigation.

Raurochole removed. Krasis now has the additional effect of reducing damage taken by target by 10% for its 10s duration.

Physic I REALLY want to just remove.

Zoe removed most likely (you have Rhizo for basically this same thing now).

Pepsis…I have no idea. I want to remove it, but I also vaguely like it as an ability. Ugh…

Soteria has some wording that it only works on Kardion, NOT Pankardion, effects granted by you.

Kardia has a recast of 1.00 sec (or 0.00 sec, but not sure if the game code does that) allowing quick swapping between targets at any time.

Thought about doing some off the wall stuff, like an ability that has two Nouliths fly to a spot and radiate AOE healing but your damage and cast healing spells are cut in strength by 50%...but that’s probably a bit much.

I really want to do SOMETHING else with Eukrasia, but for the life of me, I can’t imagine what. Using it with CD spells means you’d just always use it on those spells (e.g. Reassemble on Chainsaw) and never cast the base spell. Maybe could do a “Ready” effect allowing a 1-2 thing, like Plegma-Eukrasia Plegma? I dunno. It just seems like such a neat idea for conserving hotbar space and making some cool thing, but then using it for that seems iffy. Like I could make Eukrasian D1-3s, but when would you use them/when would you NOT use them? Maybe they’re only ready after Pneuma, but then you have to deal with weaving all those Eukrasias AND Gauss Rounds AND any healing you need? That sounds like a terrible idea! I really REALLY would love to do more with it, but I can’t think of WHAT would be good and functional to do.

No DoTs, sorry. But look on the bright side, basically no cast times, too, which should make it way easier to drop few damage spells unless you have a strong need to GCD heal. It’s fine. If we’re really worried, we could do something about GCD heals reducing the CD on Gauss Round or Plegma or something somehow to even out the damage. I dunno, I’ll think about it some more later. This was just a quick idea slapped together to get a basic something I could play with mentally while I sleep anyway.

.

Granted, this is only 28 total buttons (including Role Actions)…so maybe I’d add a few more, I just think this is a good start and I’m not sure what good to add/leave in. Like I could leave Taurochole and Krasis and Zoe and Pepsis in, but…

Maybe this is a decent starting point.

[ty_taurus]

I've been working on another take on Sage as well before even thinking about this particular topic, and I had a few goals in mind when returning to this concept:

1. Be more realistic. Rather than try to completely reimagine Sage entirely, this concept aims to address my major concerns with the job without adding an all new library of spells, and a big part of this was just adopting elements from PVP Sage.
2. Make Kardia an active choice rather than a passive consequence.
3. Thin out Sage's OGCD healing repertoire without reducing its ability to heal in a pinch.

Removed Actions and Minor Action Changes

Removed Actions

• Druochole
• Ixochole
• Keracole
• Taurochole
• Zoe
• Krasis
• Pepsis

Minor Changes

• Diagnosis: Potency increases to 650 on targets protected by a barrier
• Prognosis: Potency increases to 500 on targets protected by a barrier
• Haima: Cooldown reduced to 60 seconds.
• Panhaima: Cooldown reduced to 90 seconds.
• Icarus: Gains a second charge.

Rework Details

Trait
Enhanced Kardia: When barriers applied by your spells break on your Kardion target, you recover 4% MP.

This trait replaces the current Addersting generation on broken barriers, but has slightly more applications.

DPS Spells

Dosis
- Single target damage with a potency of 220.
- 1.5 second cast time
- No MP cost
- Kardia healing effect has been removed.

Eukrasian Dosis
- Inflicts Dyskrasia on a single enemy for 15 seconds.
- Dyskrasia effect: 120 potency damage over time
- Instant cast
- Now grants 1 Addersting
- Kardia healing effect has been removed.

Paroxysm *Renamed from "Dyskrasia"*
- AoE damage with a potency of 220; deals 40% less damage to enemies after the first.
- Range increased to 25 yalms
- Instant cast
- 800 MP cost; this cost is refunded when this attack hits 2 or more enemies.
- Kardia healing effect has been removed.
Note: This doubles as a single target mobility tool. The range increase allows you to cast it at a distance.

Eukrasian Paroxysm *New*
- Inflicts Dyskrasia on enemies in an AoE for 15 seconds.
- Dyskrasia effect: 90 potency damage over time.
- Instant cast
- No MP cost
- No Kardia effect
Note: Allows you to apply a weakened DoT in an AoE. Because the debuff name is the same, this does not stack with the DoT from Eukrasian Dosis.

Ekkokardia *New*
- AoE damage with a potency of 220; deals 40% less damage to enemies after the first.
- 1.5 second cast time
- 800 MP cost
- Heals your Kardion target with a potency of 400
Note: This is a DPS neutral attack that can be used to trigger Kardia healing by choice.

Eukrasian Ekkokardia *New*
- AoE damage with a potency of 220; deals 40% less damage to enemies after the first.
- 1.5 second cast time
- 800 MP cost
- Erects a barrier around your Kardion target with a potency of 300 and lasts 15 seconds.
Note: This barrier stacks with other GCD barriers. Due to Sage's new trait, using E. Ekkokardia proactively is better for MP management, but only regular Ekkokardia can recover HP.

Phlegma
- Delivers a twofold attack in a melee range AoE with a potency of 300 for each hit; deals 50% less damage to enemies after the first.
- Instant cast
- 400 MP cost
- Has a 20 second GCD recast timer with 2 charges
- Kardia healing effect has been removed
Note: The twofold attack helps with crit variance, but Phlegma's damage is otherwise the same per cast.

Toxikon *Is now an OGCD attack*
- AoE damage with a potency of 220; deals 40% less damage to enemies after the first.
- Costs 1 Addersting
- Kardia healing effect has been removed

Pneuma
- AoE damage in a straight line in front of you with a potency of 700; deals 60% less damage on enemies after the first.
- Grants Zoe to self and all nearby party members for 45 seconds. This increases healing received by your next spell cast by 50%.
- 1.5 second cast time
- 600 MP cost
- Has a 55 second GCD recast timer.
- Enables 1 cast of Soma
- Kardia healing effect has been removed.

Soma
- AoE damage with a potency of 220 to all enemies around you; deals 40% less damage to enemies after the first.
- Restores own HP and the HP of nearby party members with a potency of 300, and grants a barrier equal to the amount of HP restored for 30 seconds.
- Instant cast
- No MP cost
- Grants a 10% mitigation effect to your Kardion target for 20 seconds.
- Can only be cast after Pneuma. Replaces Ekkokardia on the hotbar when proc'd.

New Addersgall Spenders

Soteria
- Your next Kardia effect will be spread to all party members around your Kardion target.
- 1 second recast timer
- Addersgall cost: 1
Note: This applies to the healing from Ekkokardia, the barrier from Eukrasian Ekkokardia, and the mitigation effects from Holos and Soma

Anamnesis
- Recovers 15% of your maximum MP
- 1 second recast timer
- Addersgall cost: 1
Note: Spending Addersgall no longer automatically restores MP. Instead you restore it manually in larger amounts when needed.

Rhizomata
- Your next cast of Diagnosis, Eukrasian Diagnosis, Prognosis, or Eukrasian Prognosis will generate 1 Addersting
- 60 seond recast timer
- Addersgall cost: 1
Note: Gives you a way to spot heal or provide additional barriers while refunding you a DPS neutral Addersting.

TLDR
You can now restore HP through Kardia at a larger potency through a spell called "Ekkokardia," however, other DPS spells no longer provide tiny amounts of free Kardia healing. Eukrasian Ekkokardia can be used for a barrier instead, and Soteria will make Kardia effects AoE while now consuming Addersgall.

Besides that, your DPS toolkit now more directly mirrors PVP Sage. Your DoT and Phlegma are used twice as often, Pneuma is now a DPS burst every minute, and Toxikon is OGCD, generated largely by Eukrasian Dosis. Pnemua does not have a burst heal, but instead procs a follow-up heal and barrier spell called Soma that replaces Ekkokardia on the hotbar for a cast. Pnuema does, however, apply Zoe when cast, to empower the healing you generate either from Soma, your GCD heals, or Ekkokardia's Kardion effect.

I believe these changes, while not insignificant, are also not outlandish and are a decent foundation for building upon what Dawntrail could bring (Not that I think these changes would happen now, but that you could start with this and then consider what to add for the next expansion.) Honestly, If a change like this happened, I would be very content with Sage. Even though it still doesn't have many DPS options, using them far more frequently, and using Ekkokardia interchangeably with Dosis would be a really solid step forward in my opinion.

[Renathras]

For my part, I was trying to think of a way to have a healer with a 1-2-3 combo that would "feel" good. Because let's face it, visceral feel is a legitimate thing people derive enjoyment from. Primal Rend + Fell Cleave spam is a thing because it FEELS really good to a lot of people. Misery is a dopamine hit, too, as we're all aware.

I got to thinking, doing WAR PotD, that part of what I dislike about the idea of a healer 1-2-3 is the cast bars. Folks here have suggested things like one being a 2.5 sec cast, one instant, one 1.5; one having a DoT or something, etc. But the good feeling 1-2-3s in the game don't do that. Some have in the past (old Goring Blade), but the core 1-2-3 is just that. The "different cast time" thing we have a couple of examples of, RDM and SMN (the various Gemshine/Astral Flows). But none of those work as combos other than the Ifrit slam, which are both instants.

So it got me to thinking, maybe that's part of the trick; having them be instants.

So after that, "Which healer would it make sense to have instant cast attacks that could go thwack, smack, POW?" And that's when I remembered SGE's three Dosis animations and that lasers could work like MCH shots (which, of course, don't have cast times).

That's kind of what led to the outline above. No DoTs, 1-2-3, burst phase, and still can heal with weaving and Kardias. I'm sure not everyone would like it, but I wonder if others might find it fun. It's definitely less "Dosispam" than current SGE (despite having 3 of them, lol)

[Shurrikhan]

So it got me to thinking, maybe that's part of the trick; having them be instants.

This line of thinking seems odd. You noted that the only combos are instant, but you choose to assume that's because there's something inherently good about them being instant, rather than that such suits the needs, specifically, of engaging to slice someone apart with a sword or to charge and punch them with a fire-fist?

For my part, I'd be at least as happy having, say, an instant/short cast, a mid-length cast, and then a long/very-long cast that truly nukes, especially if the combo weren't interruptible so that I could have additional risk-reward in using the opener for mobility while still getting in my long-cast before the window closes. Instants are good when they fit the situation. Having your mobility chained together through a 1-2-3 (or a 3-4-5, if this is new and isn't intended to give the healer literally unlimited offensive mobility) into the likes of a Triplecast over the likes of 3 Lily charges... maybe feels better to... someone(?)... but would probably trend worse overall.

That said, I see zero benefit to spending 3 buttons on that. (Just as I see little to no benefit in spending 3 buttons on Solid Barrel, Royal Authority, or Souleater.) Just give me CD or a couple charges on the opener and then have it automatically swap to 2 and 3 with each subsequent action, with a limited amount of time to use it all, a la Apex Arrow -> Burst Arrow.

[AnotherPerson]

I believe these changes, while not insignificant, are also not outlandish and are a decent foundation for building upon what Dawntrail could bring (Not that I think these changes would happen now, but that you could start with this and then consider what to add for the next expansion.) Honestly, If a change like this happened, I would be very content with Sage. Even though it still doesn't have many DPS options, using them far more frequently, and using Ekkokardia interchangeably with Dosis would be a really solid step forward in my opinion.

I wouldn't, because at level 100 I expect more from the class design to make up for the level 90 toolkit feeling so devoid and empty as it is currently when there's not much to heal. Knowing me, I'm probably going to be wowed, and then eventually that "new and exciting feature" feeling passes and the realization the toolkit will feel incomplete in its kardia interaction again starts to sink in because it would feel like what should've been on the lv 90 toolkit rather than lv 100 toolkit.

Who knows though, maybe I'll actually do enjoy it since PvP Sage is decently fast paced enough. I'm just unsure whether that standard rotation gameplay will happen at lv 70 to 80 or level 95 to 100 though...

[ForsakenRoe]

For my part, I'd be at least as happy having, say, an instant/short cast, a mid-length cast, and then a long/very-long cast that truly nukes

Sounds like