How DPS complexity can make healers more forgiving

[ty_taurus]

Not a critique, just more a curiosity on my part:

Can you generate a Healer damage idea that has no DoTs?

I mean as kind of a general exercise. You know I hate DoTs, so I'm curious what you might be able to come up with. Bonus points if it can be done in a way that has context button swaps (like RDM) for hotbar economy, but I'm just curious what you can come up with.

EDIT:

Oh, doesn't have to be SCH, btw. WHM or SGE is fine, etc. I'm just curious what non-DoT options exist.

Just want to add, I went with Scholar A: because it's the job I'm very familiar with from way back then, and B: because it's the healer with the greatest disparity between what its filler potency used to be (80) vs what it currently is (295). But yeah, however it'll take me a bit of time to re-math things for a different job.

One small thing to consider are intuitive flows. For instance, in ARR, using Shadowflare, Bio2, Miasma, Bio, Aero would mean that you'd then have a similarly consecutive flow 18s after the first of Bio, Aero, Miasma, Shadowflare, Bio2. From there, things would get messier, but still in pretty intuitive ways.

It's kind of like modern MCH, where you have ABC, A, AB, AxC, AB, A, ABC between Drill, Air Anchor, and Chainsaw. If you just remember the AxC gap and that every other Drill will have an Air Anchor, you don't actually need to look down at all.

That's true. As far as the theorycraft concept is concerned, and what I'll work on for a non-DoT specific take, I do want to add that these aren't genuine suggestions as they are. I'm just doing these theorycrafts for the sake of numbers and very surface level gameplay feel. I'm not really thinking about things like the consequences of the more burst-y nature of these or how it flows into dungeon fights. That's naturally something that would need to go into these designs, but I'm just trying to communicate the math aspect for this conversation.

[Sebazy]

I like it a lot for single target.

Some nitpicks:

Would it be worth condensing Banish and Ablution down into a one button combo as well? Having the two on separate buttons feels sort of needless to me if I'm understanding the flow of play right.

In light of the above, losing the big potency bomb from Misery is a bit of a shame in my eyes, it's a satisfying ability to use and a rare dopamine hit for healers as is, would it be worth dropping some potency from Banish to get Misery back to it's current value?

It's out of the remit of the post but it would need some expansion on multi target for sure, multi dotting on pull and getting value out of those big potency Miseries is the core of WHM aoe gameplay and this removes both of those facets. Perhaps something like Purgation adding a bane effect to a Dia'd target turning the Banish>Ablution cycle and Ruach into aoes?

[Shurrikhan]

Would it be worth condensing Banish and Ablution down into a one button combo as well? Having the two on separate buttons feels sort of needless to me if I'm understanding the flow of play right.

I'm pretty sure they're separate actions... They share the 20s CD, and using either grants a free (regardless of CD) use again of either one. You can Banish and then (free-)Banish, Ablution and then (free-)Ablution, or Banish and then (free-)Ablution, Ablution and then (free-)Banish.

They're already as condensed as they can be outside of using the same name for both the attack and heal and having the action vary with whether you target an ally or enemy (which you could just do via macros anyways, as long as you don't mind having less lenient queuing period).

It's out of the remit of the post but it would need some expansion on multi target for sure, multi dotting on pull and getting value out of those big potency Miseries is the core of WHM aoe gameplay and this removes both of those facets.

Note also that this is just a mock-up made specifically to avoid DoTs per Ren's request.

_______________

• Dia - 120 potency. Inflicts 4 stacks of "Dia" as a debuff on the target (no duration). When casting Banish or Ablution on the target, consumes 1 stack to deal an additional 200 potency damage. (920 total potency)

This seems like it'd be a particularly wasteful way to go about applying Dia as a non-DoT, however. First, it still has the "Oh noes! I have to look at my TARGET's Status Bar instead of my own. Whatever shall I do?!" since it's still a debuff that should be tracked for optimal pacing (reapply per 40s, on average over time). Secondly, though, normally the decision of whether to DoT or not is based around TTK, allowing us to wisely not DoT if we want to nuke something down in less than its redemption period (enough ticks to overtake our filler).

In this case though, your nukes (double-Banish) rely on having Dia up to begin with, so it instead ends up one of the uninterestingly near-universal obligatory actions like Heavy Thrust so long as Banish will be off cooldown soon.

But, so far as meeting Ren's request, all this looks nifty. Would almost certainly be an improvement over current WHM's flow even with those strictures, though I suspect it could of course be improved upon further.

[ty_taurus]

Also you really went all out with the biblical theme huh, I'd never even heard of 'Ruach' till now but since we have 'Tetragrammaton' it fits pretty well

edit: when you say 'cast Banish/Ablution, and get a second free cast of Banish/Ablution', does that refer to just the CD, or does the second Ablution also have zero MP cost?

"Ruach" is a name I've held onto for a while for White Mage, as with "Ablution." Something I've thought since Shadowbringers was that rather than replacing the earth/wind/water-but-not-actually trinity with raw light magic, that they should've been a combination of light and earth, light and wind, light and water (if we ever actually had a water spell). So instead of "Glare," we could have "Sepulchre." Instead of "Dia," we could have "Ruach." Instead of (HA you wish), we'd have "Ablution."

And to clarify on your and the other questions in relation to Banish and Ablution, yeah, Shurrikhan has it correct that the choice between the two is one has no MP cost while the other restores HP. The thought was since you do need to use it semi-regularly, you'd have the option to address healing needs while still working toward your Retribution and keeping the cooldown running. I imagine the second cast would just be the free CD and you'd have to spend the MP on Ablution each time if you used it twice, though having the second cast be free could be interesting; however, then it's sort of a situation of "Why wouldn't you?" Unless the party is at literal full HP, it's free healing. Something else I'm thinking more about in hindsight is it would probably feel better for these double cast actions to have fast GCDs like with Ogi Namikiri. That would mess with the numbers I've set up currently, but could easily be adjusted for if this if the concept got picked up.

Generally, new jobs and job reworks very likely begin in a similar state to this. The point is to establish ideas, then see what the rest of the team gravitates toward before finessing it into something polished for release. I can't speak to SE's design process or anything, but you always want to start with rough drafts. It's also very likely that jobs start out as very OP at first and are then gradually tuned down until you hit where you think is the right sweet spot. So yeah, this is really just a proof of concept.

This seems like it'd be a particularly wasteful way to go about applying Dia as a non-DoT, however. First, it still has the "Oh noes! I have to look at my TARGET's Status Bar instead of my own. Whatever shall I do?!" since it's still a debuff that should be tracked for optimal pacing (reapply per 40s, on average over time). Secondly, though, normally the decision of whether to DoT or not is based around TTK, allowing us to wisely not DoT if we want to nuke something down in less than its redemption period (enough ticks to overtake our filler).

In this case though, your nukes (double-Banish) rely on having Dia up to begin with, so it instead ends up one of the uninterestingly near-universal obligatory actions like Heavy Thrust so long as Banish will be off cooldown soon.

But, so far as meeting Ren's request, all this looks nifty. Would almost certainly be an improvement over current WHM's flow even with those strictures, though I suspect it could of course be improved upon further.

As far as the concern of it still being a debuff and thus still requiring the player look at the target's state, I do have a solution to that. It's a realm of UI that I think is painfully unexplored in FFXIV, which is to superimpose effects over enemies. Here's an example from Genshin:



In the above image, that character can inflict a special condition on enemies called Riptide when he lands critical hits on them, and that watery reticle effect is how you can identify what enemies are afflicted with Riptide. But we could also use the ground underneath enemies as well such as in this League example:



We could be using a boss' target ring to communicate information as well. We already do so with general information. Imagine if Dia created 4 pizza slices within the the target's hitbox, perhaps using ground visual effects similar to what you might see in some of Innocence's mechanics (though not the same to avoid confusion in that fight), like the rainbow glittering floor. And the thing is, one concern that may come up would be that kind of UI getting too confusing if multiple jobs use it and multiple players are afflicting those conditions at once to the same enemy. Could you imagine alliance raids? But we already have a solution to that in the game, which is having effects that only you can see. Consider that in P11, you can only see whether you are being targeted for light or dark mechanics, but you can't see anyone else. If you integrate that same concept, then you'd only ever see your own UI, and no one else would see yours.

I'd say in general, we should only have 1 or maybe 2 of those per job (depending on how the two interact if you have more than 1), but it's a way that could make something like Dia very easy to identify without needing to always keep track of the boss. But what I think is nice about this Dia concept is the timing of when you apply it isn't strict, which was the main thing I was trying to go for. That said, I do also respect your criticism of it feeling obligatory, and it's definitely something that could be reimagined in some capacity.

Something that comes to mind actually... The idea for the level 4 Retribution system came from this character that just got released in Genshin, Freminet. His skill creates a pressure gauge where each stack raises the pressure 1 level. At level 0, reactivating his skill has him perform a Cryo attack (ice), and reactivating it at max pressure has the attack be purely physical, where reactivating it somewhere in between does a mixture of cryo and physical. I'll share a timestamp that showcases what this looks like visually: https://youtu.be/eYgUbuYzDos?si=GqrGjKo4jE3FgRsW&t=45

Maybe Dia is something that has a cooldown with charges, and the effect changes depending on your Retribution level. It's just difficult to consider what those effects can be because if any of that has to do with damage dealt, then whatever deals the most damage is what you'll do 95% of the time.

[Shurrikhan]

As far as the concern of it still being a debuff and thus still requiring the player look at the target's state, I do have a solution to that. It's a realm of UI that I think is painfully unexplored in FFXIV, which is to superimpose effects over enemies. Here's an example from Genshin:

Haven't played Genshin, but I have dabbled in other MMOs that did similar (TERA being the first to come to mind, iirc). Yeah, that'd be cool.

(Granted, Ren could make the case that making people look anywhere but at their hotbars and buff bar(s) is brain-murder, but your suggestion should suffice for most, then.)

"Ruach" is a name I've held onto for a while for White Mage, as with "Ablution." Something I've thought since Shadowbringers was that rather than replacing the earth/wind/water-but-not-actually trinity with raw light magic, that they should've been a combination of light and earth, light and wind, light and water (if we ever actually had a water spell). So instead of "Glare," we could have "Sepulchre." Instead of "Dia," we could have "Ruach." Instead of (HA you wish), we'd have "Ablution."

Sounds good.

One of the mock-ups I'm working on (WHM can take on an empowered state similar to Reaper's) does similar. (Other mock-up adds light as a separate element, though I think I'm preferring the first.)

[Sebazy]

I'm pretty sure they're separate actions... They share the 20s CD, and using either grants a free (regardless of CD) use again of either one. You can Banish and then (free-)Banish, Ablution and then (free-)Ablution, or Banish and then (free-)Ablution, Ablution and then (free-)Banish. .

Ah, I was reading it as if you would Dia > Banish > Ablution > Fill for 20 seconds and then Banish > Ablution again.

With the abilities as is, I stand by my point though. Banish > Banish brings nothing to the table at all. Meanwhile Ablution > Ablution is getting a bit more MP heavy if you're not remembering to Thin Air it but it's also a pretty hefty chunk of extra incidental HPS, perhaps too much so? Unless we're assuming that this goes hand in hand with encounter DTPS getting increased, I'm not sure that's a desirable outcome at the moment. Forcing the two abilities to be a 1 button 2 step combo curbs the incidental HPS, prevents the MP cost from being a trap for inexperienced players forgetting to Shroud/Thin Air and saves a hotkey for something else, perhaps AoE centric.

The other option would be to diversify the two abilities more within an uninterruptible 4 step combo so that the 2 buttons are both paying proper rent. Mini mudras within the Dia window? DNC Steps? Perhaps difference sequences could augment different parts of our kit? One Sequence for Misery and another for Assize etc would be pretty neat and go a long way towards giving us something to think about even if the content isn't fighting back++

[Shurrikhan]

Banish > Banish brings nothing to the table at all.

It brings mobility, just as having two charges of Banish, each on a 10s CD, does...

You can argue whether that's needed/wanted, but it's not as if it's taking up a second button to hit Banish a second time, as your earlier complaint seemed to be.

[Sebazy]

It brings mobility, just as having two charges of Banish, each on a 10s CD, does...

You can argue whether that's needed/wanted, but it's not as if it's taking up a second button to hit Banish a second time, as your earlier complaint seemed to be.

I think you're missing my point.

What does Banish > Banish offer over Banish > Ablution? The way I'm reading it, there's absolutely no reason to double Banish given that the combo removes the MP cost from Ablution and as far as I can tell, neither have a cast time? The same can be said for Ablution > Banish, there's close to zero reason to ever do that.

Thus as far as I see it, you'd only ever either either mash 4x Ablution or Banish > Ablution > Banish > Ablution (Depending on the current MP economy and how free your Thin Air charges are I guess). 4x Ablutions is is a ton of DPS and HPS whilst also retaining full mobility over the course of those 4 GCDs. Throw PI and Thin Air into the picture and it's more than I think is sensible tbh.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say by the second button paragraph though sorry. I'm not trying to imply that a 1 - 2 button combo is problematic, that's certainly not a reason to Banish > Banish. But rather that the two abilities don't really justify having their own individual buttons as it stands. Thus I think it might be better to either streamline them into a single button combo or diversify the two abilities some more.

To be clear, overall I like the idea. The retribution gauge turning Glare into a temporary 2 step combo is exactly the sort of trick SE have been missing IMO. Ren's comment about gauge clutter really only stands with the visually cluttered full size WHM gauge. The compact gauge solves this pain point NP if you ask me.

[ForsakenRoe]

Still a more interesting burst window (pre-Dia, window starts, 4x Banish/Ablution based on need, Holy, Ruach, Eschaton, Misery, Purgation), compared to what we have now (Dia, Misery, Glare-but-faster). The 'new' window is 9GCDs long, so it'd only fully fit into 20s buffs like Mug (thanks to the speed from POM), which might be a bad thing, or a good thing, depending on how much the individual enjoys the concept of 'reorder my skills so the hardest hits are prioritized for the raidbuffs'

I'd take it. Dia's a bit odd but it makes sense to me to do it as explained, because the alternative is that it's a standard 'GCD with a separate CD' and Banish/Ablution already fills that

Also you really went all out with the biblical theme huh, I'd never even heard of 'Ruach' till now but since we have 'Tetragrammaton' it fits pretty well

edit: when you say 'cast Banish/Ablution, and get a second free cast of Banish/Ablution', does that refer to just the CD, or does the second Ablution also have zero MP cost?

[ChonkGoblinSuprem]

Add complexity and a higher skill ceiling and the freaky geeks crawl out of the woodwork crying about jank and balance…. It will never end.