2 tanks and 4 dps can beat P9?

[Ianmaru]

Healers don’t need to do more DPS, they need more interesting ways to do the level of DPS they do

Think healers do 60% of a true DPS pressing 2.5 buttons and 95% of a tanks damage pressing the same

The ratio of simplicity to damage output the healers are right up there with SMN for “so far ahead of every other class it’s an actual joke”

yea when I said 'more ability to deal dps' I mean more buttons to press to deal dps.

[NightHour]

Reason 91312312 why tank sustain (War) needs to go down.

Also, here's p12s without healers.
https://youtu.be/etKYa3K70ek

Make Clemency and Nascent cost gauge.

Remove MP cost from Clemency and make it cost 40/50 gauge OR just give Clemency a cooldown.


Make Nascent cost like 25/30 gauge.



These numbers could be adjusted, just random ideas.

[Absimiliard]

Make Clemency and Nascent cost gauge.

Remove MP cost from Clemency and make it cost 40/50 gauge OR just give Clemency a cooldown.


Make Nascent cost like 25/30 gauge.

So your objective is to make WAR never allowed in raids again? I see.

[Ivtrix]

Make Clemency and Nascent cost gauge.

Remove MP cost from Clemency and make it cost 40/50 gauge OR just give Clemency a cooldown.


Make Nascent cost like 25/30 gauge.

25 gauge is heinously expensive no thank you

[Sebazy]

but you are also more powerful than the others, to the point that as long as you're standing, your party wouldn't lose, and you felt like you're the foundational rock of the party.

Is that really true though? Was I really more powerful?

In FFXI, by myself I was literally nothing. It took me 15 minutes+ to solo a trash mob that was barely above grey to me. Calling an FFXI bard powerful is completely misunderstanding the job because they were anything but. What they were was an amplifier and enabler. We took bad matchups and made them good, we took good matchups and made them great.

For WoW, was I really the powerful than the warrior who was one/two shotting our victims? By themselves, the Warrior was vulnerable and an easy target. By myself I was a brick wall but also little more than an annoyance if simply ignored. Together, we were devastating and synergised perfectly.

Overall, FFXI is a particularly good case study to look at. It's not that one role was more important than the others, but rather that the game played into the trinity HARD.

Simple merit farm mobs would literally 1 shot a caster and the DPS/support wouldn't fare much better, maybe 2-3 rounds if it doesn't use a damage WS on you? No tank? No go.

Tanks, Healers and Supports did somewhere between little to no damage and in most cases, it was actually detrimental to allow a non tank or DPS to even touch the mob unless it was dots as you'd feed TP allowing it to potentially do considerably more damage. No DPS? No go.

Supports were vital to enable DPS to reliably connect on IT rated mobs. Without those BRD/Cor/etc buffs, you'd be missing/bouncing often enough that you'd have to step a tier down which was a HUGE loss in exp. No Support? No go.

Healers were similarly important. Even tanks would still get tied in knots by some mob weapon skills and no matter what gear you had, you'd need a healer babysitting you even up against a simple merit farm trash mob. No healer? No go.

Meanwhile in mainstream FFXIV content, Healers can survive tank busters and deal damage. Tanks can heal and deal damage. DPS can heal and survive tank busters. See the problem here?

FFXI was an MMO through and through, you relied on other people just as other people would rely on you.

FFXIV has evolved into a single player game with an MMO dressing over the top of it.

I don't know what makes you think that in FFXIV, when you die as a healer, the group barely bats an eye lid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6MvwQWBMVg&t=471s

Here's a favourite example of mine. Some fun facts about it:

Look closely at the CD usage, the healing wasn't particularly well timed and key cooldowns were missed/wasted across the group. This wasn't some MLG pro gamer save by any stretch.

Also note the instance timer, this wasn't their first pull. Go figure that after wiping a bunch, they actually cleared after the healers had died. I sure bet those healers felt great about their role++

What I see from this whole discussion is, healers complain because they feel they are less important than the other roles

That's because in large swathes of the game, we are do indeed feel less important than the other roles. In the casual end game we are a comfort blanket that's honestly not needed if people are awake, have some gear and know what they are doing, and unlike tanks or DPS, if people are good enough to do the content without us, the group is likely *better* for it.

A competent group chewing up an expert dungeon without a tank is going to be fun, but messy and sketchy. The same competent group chewing up an expert without dps is going to be glacially slow and dull. The same competent group chewing up an expert without a healer is likely going to be faster than a traditional trinity group, by a decent margin too.

That's a problem IMO =(

[Nebelheim]

Is that really true though? Was I really more powerful?

In FFXI, by myself I was literally nothing. It took me 15 minutes+ to solo a trash mob that was barely above grey to me. Calling an FFXI bard powerful is completely misunderstanding the job because they were anything but. What they were was an amplifier and enabler. We took bad matchups and made them good, we took good matchups and made them great.

For WoW, was I really the powerful than the warrior who was one/two shotting our victims? By themselves, the Warrior was vulnerable and an easy target. By myself I was a brick wall but also little more than an annoyance if simply ignored. Together, we were devastating and synergised perfectly.

Overall, FFXI is a particularly good case study to look at. It's not that one role was more important than the others, but rather that the game played into the trinity HARD.

Simple merit farm mobs would literally 1 shot a caster and the DPS/support wouldn't fare much better, maybe 2-3 rounds if it doesn't use a damage WS on you? No tank? No go.

Tanks, Healers and Supports did somewhere between little to no damage and in most cases, it was actually detrimental to allow a non tank or DPS to even touch the mob unless it was dots as you'd feed TP allowing it to potentially do considerably more damage. No DPS? No go.

Supports were vital to enable DPS to reliably connect on IT rated mobs. Without those BRD/Cor/etc buffs, you'd be missing/bouncing often enough that you'd have to step a tier down which was a HUGE loss in exp. No Support? No go.

Healers were similarly important. Even tanks would still get tied in knots by some mob weapon skills and no matter what gear you had, you'd need a healer babysitting you even up against a simple merit farm trash mob. No healer? No go.

Meanwhile in mainstream FFXIV content, Healers can survive tank busters and deal damage. Tanks can heal and deal damage. DPS can heal and survive tank busters. See the problem here?

FFXI was an MMO through and through, you relied on other people just as other people would rely on you.

(

In ff11 jobs were more complex then simply fitting into a tank/dps/healer role like modern mmo games. FF11 jobs were a lot more complex with much bigger kits then most modern mmos. And there was a lot more strategy to get job combos to work unless you were a beast master which they were off solo.

[Sebazy]

In ff11 jobs were more complex then simply fitting into a tank/dps/healer role like modern mmo games. FF11 jobs were a lot more complex with much bigger kits then most modern mmos. And there was a lot more strategy to get job combos to work unless you were a beast master which they were off solo.

(Note that my PoV is up primarily up to the 75 cap, I was pretty hardcore during Zilart-CoP but did come back midcore for Aht Urhgan and Wings). IMO that complexity was more a case of job confusion. Many jobs slotted into roles that just made no sense or just didn't perform like you'd expect in group/raid play, eg Nin being a Tank, SMN being a healer/MP battery etcetc. The key difference is that support was very much it's own unique role and it had a ton of variety beyond BRD+Cor.

[Nebelheim]

(Note that my PoV is up primarily up to the 75 cap, I was pretty hardcore during Zilart-CoP but did come back midcore for Aht Urhgan and Wings). IMO that complexity was more a case of job confusion. Many jobs slotted into roles that just made no sense or just didn't perform like you'd expect in group/raid play, eg Nin being a Tank, SMN being a healer/MP battery etcetc. The key difference is that support was very much it's own unique role and it had a ton of variety beyond BRD+Cor.

Yeah people back then did seem to slot jobs into weird roles that they weren't intended for. Now in the 99 era people play the jobs as they were originally intended but most jobs seem to only be used in certain situations and created metas like modern mmos.

[NightHour]

25 gauge is heinously expensive no thank you

Maybe 15/20 Gauge then.


Nascent and Clemency do need some sort of adjustments to curb this kind of behaviour



The fact that current expansion High end content is being cleared without a subclass of Jobs just because WAR and PLD have such powerful healing should be a cause for concern.


It's not like P12S or ToP are casual content, it's some of the hardest end game content in the game.

So your objective is to make WAR never allowed in raids again? I see.

Those numbers were just random numbers I thought of at the time.

[Moonlite]

The idea healers were ever in a good spot. In ARR using cross class skills thaum could heal up to stone vigil same with arcanist. Healer has some sort of meltdown and leaves off to the boss we go. I also miss early heal for tanks from cross class.


The game should probably decide if they even want healers almost at this point. And the tiny percentage needed at the high end is not how games should be designed around. If all melee became some version of war heals and all mages some version of pld heals it wouldn't be the end of the world. Already see lots of PF no healer runs.