For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[ChonkGoblinSuprem]

Okay. So there are even fewer people in your definition of endgame player. That actually bolsters my point. The vast majority of people playing this game don’t and likely won’t ever care about what goes on in the hardcore endgame raiding content.

[Sebazy]

Okay. So there are even fewer people in your definition of endgame player. That actually bolsters my point. The vast majority of people playing this game don’t and likely won’t ever care about what goes on in the hardcore endgame raiding content.

Ok, lets make this clear:

This problem is at it's absolute worst in entry level end game content (Aka expert/90 roulettes, Normal Modes and 24 man alliances). Not mid tier endgame raiding content (Aka Extremes and early Savage) or 'Hardcore' endgame raiding content (aka Later Savage turns and Ultimates).

To give you an example in a fairly typical 24 man, Aglaia. The first kill in my list of logs for Byregot, I cast 110 GCDs over a 4:40 fight, 86 of those were Glare, 9 were Dia, 6 Raptures, 3 Solaces, 3 Cure IIs for some reason, 2 miseries, 1 regen (Note this was before the lily generation rate buff I think). So far from an exceptional log by any means. If it couldn't look any worse, I had a 100% overheal rate on those Raptures, 50% on the Solaces, 96% overheal on Assize and Regen was at 60%. 0% on those Cure IIs though so I suspect they were for raises. Even with deaths my overheal rate was 70% across all of my kit despite the fact that I was spending very little time actually healing.

The key thing I think you're misunderstanding is that dungeons and other mainstream content at the level cap are nothing like leveling dungeons. This game doesn't have a difficulty curve, it has a difficulty pit. It starts out super braindead and easy, gets surprisingly difficult at times and then promptly gets braindead easy again once you hit the cap and start getting endgame gear.

I can promise you now that levelling dungeons such as Bardams, The Vault, old Cutters Cry etc are a whole world apart from the tedium that is expert roulette. These dungeons are FAR more challenging content than any expert roulette dungeon, normal mode or 24 man raid. I can link you to people clearing Lighthouse (Regarded as one of the tougher 24 man raids) that were managing somewhere in the region of 6 button presses a minute. That's about as far removed from hardcore as you can get and a few players of that calibre wouldn't have gotten out of the vault back in the day.

Consider running Tam-Tara Deepcroft normal mode back to back, regular pulls there are about as threatening as Expert Roulette dungeons... It really is that bad.

[Shurrikhan]

Screw you.

This is the kind of nonsense that gets fights started here and then people go "Oh Ren, you're TOO sensitive"

It's your damned quote, not some substitution of mine. You are the one who complained that...

I feel like a broken record

I then pointed out why you end up as a broken record, since that is yet another thing you've blamed entirely on everyone else: you refuse to deal with the principle argument (why having additional things to play around with would harm those who already, and could to equal performance continue to, use only a small portion of their kit / perform only a small degree of available optimizations).

Perhaps spend more time towards that, rather than on nit-picking others' diction and claims they didn't make, purposely misunderstanding them, and on unwarranted moral outrage?

[ChonkGoblinSuprem]

Seems like that Expert Roulette is tuned for people who just want to chill and farm gear, not for people who want a challenge….

In my experience, Alliance Raids are just Benny Hill / comedy option content that are designed to be easier for a horde of DPS to queue into. They are fun to have everyone sprinting in a big pack whacking down a few encounters…

Maybe you should focus on Extreme and Savage if you want a challenge? Isn’t there Ultimate too? Why are you focusing on a narrow subset of the content available to you

The basic Roulettes are meant for a party of random pubbies of varying skill and give a F levels. Do the harder stuff if you want. As you said, it’s available.

[Shurrikhan]

Adding a DPS rotation to Healers is the worst idea I’ve ever heard. No other job needs to pay close attention to and often quickly target different members of the party to apply heals or Esuna. Whatever “endgame” content you are grinding on right now apparently has a bunch of instant kill mechanics, but as someone who still runs leveling roulette, there is already enough for healers to keep up with. As if pressing three buttons in sequence is somehow better than pressing one button…. lol nah.

So, we may need to define, then, what a "DPS rotation" even means.

Obviously, something like SAM's Shadowbringers loop would not work if unpredictable GCD healing needs were at all increased, even if its "combos" couldn't be interrupted (because so much of its thought and appeal are wrapped up in precisely managing overclocking, which anyone taking significant avoidable damage would then scatter to the winds for too large a portion of this SAM-like-Healer's players). A Bard loop, though? Well, that's (sadly) almost the same, but with a procced_filler, an oGCD, a Misery-analog follow-up, and a tiny bit of oGCD 'stance' interaction over the top (which probably wouldn't be worth its buttons if copied verbatim).

If you mean that simply as having more than 3 explicitly offensive single-target buttons then... no, healer kits can and have supported that. it's just a matter of extracting the greatest amount of enjoyable gameplay we can per button, which can sometimes mean more interaction with the heals and sometimes also means going a bit further towards a sort of 'critical mass'.

Similarly, if you mean some 4-5 GCDs per minute that would have disproportionate value in their being used at a specific time (and may or may not take certain timely actions prior), that is again doable; we'd just need to ensure that healers have enough slack for a majority of players interested in playing better than terribly to still feel like they're hitting those high notes, so to speak, without that slack being so free as to leave truly zero difference (in carry potential, not even necessarily clear potential) between those who need that slack to do so and those who do not.

Seems like that Expert Roulette is tuned for people who just want to chill and farm gear, not for people who want a challenge….

I mean... kinda, but it's also a weird place to tune for "chill and farm", no? It's a 12-minute hallway sprint. If I were looking to "chill and farm gear", the first place that comes to mind is the original Diadem.

In general, it seemed like people were more happy with dungeons when they were harder than they are now, but less hard than, say, pre-nerfs Pharos Sirius. It feels like there's definitely a sweet spot, and that this definitely feels at least a bit easier/lower than that. The most wipes we get are from healers forgetting that Doom randomly vacillates between being dispelled via Esuna and being dispelled via healing allies to full, and healers are pretty well optional (technically, tanks are, too, though at least the run is faster with them than without).

Of course, there are some easy reconciliations here: If a dungeon is supposed to be fast, then reliability of clear speed becomes all the more valuable. The chance of having to run all the way back from the start or the previous boss after a wipe... hurts that. Having a high gap between minimum and maximum item level hurts that. But those are both easy fixes. Since the way to each boss is blocked by mobs anyways, we could just checkpoint progress at the start of the current boss fight, instead of the previous one; that run back is a relic of pre-CD-resets and 30+minute dungeons. We could also either reduce the maximum ilvl or provide better access to and incentive for Minimum Item Level runs.

Imagine, for instance, if we were to add three pieces of tech, Multi-Queue for Roulettes, Personal Loot, and Loot Scaling. The first is obvious; it allows people to queue for 2-3 Roulettes at a time. The second allows Roulette-runners to opt out of the loot pool, replacing the would-be loot with that of the highest rewards they'd have access to within that Roulette's category (e.g., if Expert Roulette were repurposed and they were to get Smileton through a combined Lv90 Roulette, they'd presently get Aetherfont loot and tomes instead). The last means that certain criteria could increase your %bonus on loot by some amount. For now, let's apply this only to Minimum Item Level runs: when doing minimum ilvl content, you (if using Personal Loot) or your party would have a chance to generate bonus loot equal to your (and your party's) ilvl reduced (from max ilvl to min ilvl), including even mount drops (multiplicatively; 30 ilvl -> 30% -> 1% chance * 1.3 = 1.3% chance, not a 31% chance).

From there, we could just move the Minimum Item Level setting from a little-known sub-option locked behind a rarely-touched menu to part of the main queue interface itself, such as by being as a second, smaller/subtler checkmark box right by the current one. Especially if paired with being able to queue for multiple Roulettes at a time, you'd often see players go ahead and use that for the equal or slightly greater rewards per minute and a greater portion of the time spent in combat instead of merely sprinting to the next fight (in the case of dungeons and alliance raids).

[Sebazy]

Seems like that Expert Roulette is tuned for people who just want to chill and farm gear, not for people who want a challenge….

Again, I think you're failing to grasp what's actually causing these difficulty spikes or troughs. Leveling dungeons are often much more tightly tuned because you tackle them at or very close to the ilvl they are balanced for. Lets take the Vault. It's a level 57 dungeon that drops ilvl 142 gear, you're likely going to have gear around or slightly above ilvl 130 (Aka Ironworks mixed with other dungeon drops around that mark). I'm not sure of the exact number off the top of my head but I believe at level 58 you get synced down to ilvl 160 or thereabouts? The TLDR is that you can't really over gear it either as someone leveling and getting gear on the way up, or as someone doing roulettes that already has way better gear. The dungeon has teeth either way.

Meanwhile the current most recent expert roulette dungeon is ilvl 605, drops 625 gear but a fresh level 90 can cheaply buy a full set of ilvl 640 gear and start working towards 650-660 gear through tomes, the upcoming 24 man and so forth. Someone who has literally just dinged to level 90 and has an ounce of sense is already overgearing the most recent expert dungeon by 35 ilvl! Meanwhile a BiS raider is 55 ilvl clear of what the dungeon is designed to require.

For tanks and DPS it's not the end of the world, they just whackamole things down harder and faster. For healers, it means we get to press the same button on repeat because everything melts too quickly and the tank can sustain themselves. Quality entertainment.

In my experience, Alliance Raids are just Benny Hill / comedy option content that are designed to be easier for a horde of DPS to queue into. They are fun to have everyone sprinting in a big pack whacking down a few encounters…

Really? The example I mentioned (Rabanastre, not lighthouse sorry!) was a 24 man that would routinely murder groups if enough people were slacking. Vote abandons at Hashmal were commonplace to say the least. I suspect your experience consists of Crystal Tower runs where stuff melts in seconds but mark my words, when they were current and relevant content, both Bone Dragon and Behemoth would merrily wipe raids and neither were a pushover. And then there was the likes of Thundergod Cid. I'm sorry but there is no way to sugar coat this. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Maybe you should focus on Extreme and Savage if you want a challenge? Isn’t there Ultimate too? Why are you focusing on a narrow subset of the content available to you

Let me make this clear.

This isn't all about difficulty

Let's stick with Byregot as our example. On WHM over a 4:38 fight I pressed my glare key 86 times, my second most pressed ability was Dia at 9 uses, 3rd was Assize at 7, 4th was Rapture at 6.

Now, lets compare that to the same boss but on DNC, over a 4:40 fight, I pressed Cascade 18 times, Sabre Dance 17 times, Fountain 17 times, 4th was fountainfall 15 times.

Can you see the difference there? On Healer I was mashing the same button endless, hoping for something to happen (It didn't). On DNC instead of having to rely on other people's repeated failures to get something to do, I have procs to follow, charges to manage, burst windows to optimise, synergy with a friend. I don't have to give a F and put some effort into it, but I can, and I get a very tangible and noticeable impact in my performance when I do.

Here we have a fight that is almost completely braindead, deals little to no damage outside of severe mechanical fails. As DNC, there is still enjoyment to be had. On WHM it was so painfully dull that I was getting to the point where I just wanted to alt F4 out of the raid whilst I was trying to get the set.

The basic Roulettes are meant for a party of random pubbies of varying skill and give a F levels. Do the harder stuff if you want. As you said, it’s available.

Or perhaps, just perhaps you could put the coolaid down long enough to realise that perhaps, just maybe the current healer formula is simply incredibly stale and boring in trivial content (Which makes up a significant chunk of endgame gameplay even for a super hardcore raider).

I'm not saying that we don't need trivial easy content in the end game (Although I'll suggest that currently, it's perhaps a bit too easy).

I'm saying that we need something to do in trivial easy content that isn't pressing 1 button 86 or however many times.

We used to have interesting debuff abilities - Removed and given to DPS

We used to have CC that saw genuine use in the really early days - Gone because everything's a face roll

We used to have neat little kit interactions and beneficial synergies with other jobs such as Esunaing Pacification - Gone the way of the dodo

We used to have the cleric stance dance to keep us on our toes and push a sense of risk vs reward - Gone because scary

We used to have to manage our MP resources - Gone because braindead

We used to have several dots with a multitude of different timers to keep tabs on to min max - Gone because homogenisation

AST used to have cards that actually required some thought and improvisation to get the best out of - Gone because everything is balance

SCH used to have 2 independent GCDs and a trait that actively rewarded you for maximising your aetherflow economy promoting maximising your uptime and cast rate - Gone so Sadge could have a reason to exist.

Now you tell me, what did we get in return for losing all of these little facets to our gameplay?

I'm not trying to say that old era healers were perfect, but we've gone from having rough coarse diamonds to a collection of perfectly round, bland and soulless spheres with absolutely zero wrinkles to their game.

Is this really that difficult to understand?

[ChonkGoblinSuprem]

Pressing three buttons in sequence is not significantly more interesting to me than pressing one button. Casting Glare vs casting Glare, Share, and Care in sequence…. Wheeeee!

Who cares? My statement stands that a 123 rotation for healer DPS is a bad idea.

It sounds like the real issue is they handed out those self-heals to all of the tanks (except DRK) and set the mob dps so laughably low that healers have nothing interesting to do unless somebody screws up, which isn’t likely to happen in those encounters.

Still, adding a 123 rotation is a bad idea. That’s my only point, that a 123 rotation is not the solution to this issue, redesigning the fights so that the healers have to heal is.

[Shurrikhan]

Pressing three buttons in sequence is not significantly more interesting to me than pressing one button. Casting Glare vs casting Glare, Share, and Care in sequence…. Wheeeee!

I agree, but... there's also only been like 2 people across this whole thread to suggest as much, and they were pretty quickly contested.

Or, to put it simply "a 123 rotation" does not encapsulate or even particular represent a "dps" rotation. No actual DPS has only a 123. Such solely describes DRK, PLD, and GNB.

That’s my only point, that a 123 rotation is not the solution to this issue, redesigning the fights so that the healers have to heal is.

I do think healers having more to heal would be a boon, but you can only increase healing requirements so far before making content inaccessible, while increasing the ceiling of downtime engagement has no such risk. Moreover, they're not mutually exclusive to each other.

Hell, ARR healing, especially, showed that depth and ceiling both in healing itself and in downtime activities are really quite synergetic, especially in any context where MP at least slightly matters and healers have more choice in how they distribute their output per minute among healing and rDPS (rather than so much of their output per minute being locked to "free" healing CDs than their maximum damage output is then reduced to pay for / balance out).

Okay. So there are even fewer people in your definition of endgame player. That actually bolsters my point. The vast majority of people playing this game don’t and likely won’t ever care about what goes on in the hardcore endgame raiding content.

Quite the opposite. That means that "the vast majority of people playing this game" never get to see any redeeming pay-off for their kit having its more fundamental components neutered just to get a kit that only sees compelling use in Ultimate.

[Sebazy]

Still, adding a 123 rotation is a bad idea. That’s my only point, that a 123 rotation is not the solution to this issue, redesigning the fights so that the healers have to heal is.

Psst, 123 rotations aren't the only option on the table here. If they were to add that sort of thing I actually think it would be best to add it as a PvP style auto combo on 1 button quite frankly as otherwise we are heading straight back into button bloat oblivion so I'm in agreement with you on this detail to some extent.

I used Dancer as my example because I think it's one of the best blue prints for how a healer can be made entertaining:

Procs and charges.

These can be off dots ala thundercloud, abilities ala feathers, it honestly doesn't really matter. Basically something that isn't on a set timer, don't let us spreadsheet pre plan everything down to the last oGCD like we can currently.

Spice it up with charges, allow us to bank them for burst or movement windows but above all, give us a reason to actually watch the screen and pay attention to what's going on.

It's entirely possible to make healers that are enjoyable and feel impactful even when there's nothing to heal, Swtor and Warhammer Online are both excellent examples of this.

It doesn't even have to be DPS related. AST is right there waiting for it's group contribution to be handled primarily through buffs and augments rather than spending all of it's GCDs spamming the same nuke as everyone else, but SE just don't have the depth within their job team to pull it off sadly. Thus we get the homogenised slush that we are saddled with today.

[Shurrikhan]

Still, adding a 123 rotation is a bad idea. That’s my only point, that a 123 rotation is not the solution to this issue, redesigning the fights so that the healers have to heal is.

Psst, 123 rotations aren't the only option on the table here. If they were to add that sort of thing I actually think it would be best to add it as a PvP style auto combo on 1 button quite frankly as otherwise we are heading straight back into button bloat oblivion so I'm in agreement with you on this detail to some extent.

I used Dancer as my example because I think it's one of the best blue prints for how a healer can be made entertaining:

Procs and charges.

Meanwhile, I'm not a fan of heavily RNG-based gameplay (and feel that the randomness of an average party's ability to mistakes, especially if we actually had to use GCD healing, would likely be enough to keep healer damage from being too affixed to a rigid timeline), and therefore wouldn't care much for procs and would instead draw from very different examples (or even something that's merely something fundamental about what can make DPS jobs' optimizations appealing), because... the choices and sources are many and varied.

A "123 combo" is the shallowest, most bloated, least satisfying, least efficient way to shake up or add ceiling to healer downtime. But luckily, that leaves the remaining ~99% of options.