For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

And yet somehow I'm the one who got accused of having an ego /s

I get tired of saying the same thing over and over again, and of people acting like their perspective is the only perspective.

In any ideal world, I shouldn't have to present the diametrically opposed perspective, because you folks should be mature and adult enough to recognize it exists. Instead, some of you act like it doesn't exist at all, and seem incapable of even contemplating it, much less seeing it, much less accepting it, much less accommodating for it.

The worst part is, when I'm countering someone on your side, and another one of you picks up the counter as if it was a stand-alone position. Like Shurrikan acting like I went from "some unknown amount to 75%" when it was Askellington that made the 75% (2x25%s, to be precise) setup and I just went with his numbers.

Likewise, you're acting like I have an ego here when I was just presenting the opposed position to Askellington's own - I'll note you didn't accuse him of having an ego, so yay for double standards, I guess.

TL;DR: You aren't helping with quips like that.

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As a DNC, I honestly enjoy the niche of supportive classes in any game, that my overall dps is actually part of other dpser's buffed performances.

I also like the idea of supporting the supporters like offhealing, helping tanks survive (RIP Palisade), without fully commiting to their roles.

I don't know if that is a good answer for the OP, but an observation is that I wish the game would be nicer to the supporting role, but I suppose that would require a huge overhaul of the combat system for it to ever be relevant.

No, I understand that. It's why the only DPS I will play generally are SMN or RDM. I hate being in a party (especially 4 man) and one person like the healer goes down, then it's a wipe because there's no way to salvage the situation. I always play classes that can heal in games, even if I'm playing a tank or damage dealer. Like here, my DPS of choice are SMN >> RDM >>>> others in roughly that order. I haven't done DNC much, but it would probably be in there a little below RDM. Likewise, PLD is my go-to tank for obvious reasons. Granted, WAR now outheals everything in the game, but I still like that PLD was more made for it, and still remember in ARR/HW where I had Cure 1 and Raise on my PLD as Cross-Class skills.

So yeah, I understand your answer perfectly well. It's something I wish the game did more of, but the combat system is just really rigid about stuff. To this day, I don't get why SMN's Physic hasn't been changed to scale off INT like RDM's does and still scales off MND instead. That made sense in ARR or HW, but doesn't really at this point. Especially since ShB split the SCH and ACN skills (the only skill listed under "Class" for SMN is Resurrection; the Physic it has is actually a separate ability in the game code that is only for SCH so if you manage to get it on your ACN/SMN bar, it's grayed out, and likewise, theirs is grayed out on SCH. So there's no coding reason for it not to scale from INT now.)

SCH/WHM changes:

I want to start by saying that I DO appreciate someone taking time to write out a long post, so I'd like to read through this all later, just not up to it at the moment. But I DID want to respond to this:

Something you should probably understand is you likely aren't the target audience for WHM. Just like I'm not the target audience for AST. Or BLM. Or etc.

This goes to the 4 healer thing that people don't want to acknowledge - the healers are ALREADY targeting different audiences, and always have since WHM/SCH in ARR. It's why so many here like AST and to a lesser extent (in most cases, in some cases greater) SCH. It's why the contrast between the views here and Wesk Alber's poll. Though even within Jobs, you find splits (for example, some people like White Mage and want a holy magic user, while others like CNJ and want a nature magic using Druid; hence part of the reason people constantly ask for a Geomancer because they think it would be...well...that).

So any changes I propose you probably aren't going to like. But as for the reasons:

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WHM:

Holy - For people that want Holy as an "ultimate" White Magic (which it is in Final Fantasy lore). It's borderline insulting the White Magic counterpart to Meteor/Flare (depending on game), is a 140 potency AOE that hits like a wet noodle. Sure, it stuns, but Holy is generally the ULTIMATE White Magic spell, and FFXIV's version is kind of an insult. HOLY should be what Misery is in terms of power. Making it part of the single target rotation as doing more damage than FREAKIN GLARE would at least be a start. It would also break up the 1111 spam that people here insist all the time they don't like. While we COULD just use Misery for this and get the same end result, mechanically (just make Glare do the same thing for single target Holy does in the AOE rotation), that was the reason I specifically chose Holy there.

Assize - Exactly the reason you said; WHM being a more methodical, GCD focused healer. I'm fine without it stacking to 2, that's just to allow drift and not demand it be used on CD if you can either save it for burst or use it for healing. That's the reasoning for the 2 stack. For the GCD is two parts. One part is that WHM being a more methodical and GCD healer, and the other is to again break up the 1111 spam. Note I'm operating on the premise people here dislike pressing the same GCD button over and over (since they ignore any oGCDs that are pressed in the rotation), hence part of any solution would include having more GCDs as frequently used buttons.

Dia - Dia stacking, yes. ALL the Healers right now have an IDENTICAL 2111 rotation, with the 2 part of that being IDENTICAL. I want to break that up. SGE's is the most distinct right now since it works via Eukrasia in a pseudo-weave. Under my proposal, SCH would get additional DoTs (at least 1) that would affect its resource generation (and Miasma as a movement tool), SGE would have its DoT removed since it would be shifting to a Caster rotation instead, and AST would have its Combust remain like it is (since that's been AST's thing since SB, or maybe even HW?). So given that, if WHM's doesn't change, it's still identical to AST. And I want more than anything the Healers to NOT have identical rotations - something you guys SUPPOSEDLY want, too. People also all the time make comparisons between WHM and WAR, so I thought doing that with its DoT is a straightforward solution. This way, we have 4 healers that each have a different DoT in their rotation; WHM's stacks, SCH has several, AST has just the non-stacking one, and SGE has none.

...for all you people want to insist things need changing, it's REALLY odd to me that you all want to insist that Healers are NOT ALLOWED to have a stacking DoT. I get we disagree on a lot of things, but this is just a REALLY strange hill to die on.

Anyway, none of it makes you want to pick up WHM again...and that's fine. Ideally, AST would have the changes that you like incorporated so you can be happy playing AST and I can be happy playing WHM. That's...kind of the point. As to what it fixes; the proposal fixes the 21111 spam that everyone here says they hate. WHM's rotation would be 2(optional second 2)411131113112131113111311432... with spurts of 4/5 (Solace/Rapture) that would push back the 1/3 next in que, and 6 (Misery) once per minute (1 = Glare, 2 = Dia, 3 = Holy, 4 = Assize), which is a departure from 21111111111121111111111126 that we have right now. You may not find it THRILLINGLY different, but it's roughly similar to WAR or NIN's non-burst. And WHM's burst would probably be about double stacking Dia so you get 60 seconds of buffed DoT, placing a Misery in there, 2 Assizes, leading with an empowered Holy, getting a second Holy if possible, a third if you can cram it in. You can't tell me that's the same as leading burst with Misery, one Dia, then pressing Glare for the next 15 seconds.

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SCH:

Excog: ...short CD? o.O Well, that's a new one on me. As to "why" upgrade: Note how I described SCH in that proposal. The goal was to increase rotational complexity but end the Job at a similar level of overall difficulty, which means reducing excess clunk/complexity. The reason for the upgrade is partly due to that end. Making the DPS more complex by making the healing simpler so that it evens out. People here all the time say healing is simple anyway (the healing kits), so this shouldn't change anything. It also reduces SCH's button bloat, which is a problem the Job has according even to Ty's poll.

Miasma: One thing I've always found bad about Bane is that it simplifies multi-DoTting - it's odd you'd argue for a braindead button to be added given your views against healer simplicity. I find buttons like Bane to be braindead. Another issue is that adding it would oppose one of the objectives - reducing button bloat - by adding an unneeded button. It's also why I tried to think of ways to add in that mechanic through other means, like Art of War. (Which would incidentally make Art of War distinct from Dyskrasia, so I'd take that as a plus anyway; in this case, the Art of SpreadingDebuffs, which does seem to go with the tactician theme). Deployment Tactics working for debfufs is a pretty hard no UNLESS the CD of it is slashed and it's given charges. Otherwise we have the "Energy Drain competing for Aetherflow" fight all over again. Note in PvP, Deployment Tactics has a CD of like 20 seconds, not 90 seconds.

[Also, that's supposed to be DoT, not HoT. XD Can tell from the next line where I'm discussing the potency of the DoT. Editing to fix that... The point was to make a Ruin 2 that you actually WANT to use as part of your rotation, but that can also still be a movement tool.]

Broil IV - Again, Bane/Deploy is NOT fine. I do think AoW would be the ideal here, though. It was a while ago I came up with this, and Art does seem to be the better vehicle for this. I think I discussed it in a reply somewhere in the thread...

Aetherpact - Because a lot of people find it useless BECAUSE of how the channel is interrupted. Maybe this is you being an AST main and not playing SCH, but it's something SCH's complain about. A lot. Even in this forum some of the regulars who play SCH frequently share the complaint. The Lustrate change was specifically to address what Sabezy said would be a potential issue of not having Lustrate and to maintain the optimization between Energy Drain that some people enjoy but a lot don't (Ty's survey, one of the most common requests for SCH was to decouple Energy Drain from Aetherflow).

Physic - Another proposal I've had is remove Esuna as a Role action and have all the level 1 cure spells upgrade into that Job's equivalent. Basically have the button upgrade to add the cleanse. E.g. "Cure 1 upgrades to Esuna, which has the 1 sec cast time, 400 MP cost, and heals 500 potency". It's more a button consolidation thing. I do agree Adlo is more distinct, which is why I've proposed Physic upgrade to Leeches, Cure 1 to Esuna, and...I forget the AST one, but it used to have one of its own in HW before they made Esuna Rolewide in SB. Not only would this mean a single button's worth of consolidation, it would actually lend to the flavor of each Job since the names could go to their own class fantasy more, and they could even have some secondary effect added (which Esuna can't due to being a Role action) to each one, like WHM's having a small HoT or AST's costing slightly less MP or SCH's having a faster cast time, etc. SGE would just have a trait that grants Diagnosis the cleanse effect (the name already fits anyway). So this latter change is a combination of class flavor and the original button consolidation/bloat reduction.

Energy Drain - Again, one of the most asked for things by SCH players is for ED to be decoupled from AF. I think this is funny because a separate group complains when ED is removed, insisting it's the height of optimization and skill balancing healing and damage...but also insisting the healing's not needed, so it shouldn't matter and people shouldn't complain. In any case, this change would retain the cost-benefit trade-off, while letting people use AF skills. Because, at least to me, Sacred Soil and Excogitation are interesting abilities that I like using. The "Roughly about the same" is intended to please those people by giving them that thing they can still work to optimize if they wish, while Eos having a on-demand mini-Lustrate is to deal with cases of Excog not being useful for the task (where a target has more than 50% health but not enough to outright survive an upcoming attack, thus making Excog not work for healing them), and removing the clunk of the channeled ability (Aetherpact is no different than Collective or Passage of Arms; abilities people don't like because of what they preclude if you sit and channel - yes, you can still take actions yourself, but that doesn't really make it much better since it still has the downsides).

Eos/Selene - Was...never a choice. Seriously. In SB, Selene's AI was somehow worse than Eos (I never figured out how it was possible, but it was definitely a thing), and through the game's history, either Eos or Selene was superior. Using the other was generally bad, and there was never a point in the game where power-swapping between them was really useful other than for Selene's AOE cleanse, which was niche then and even more niche now if we still had it. The speed boost (as we talk about with Arrow all the time) would be a negative in modern FFXIV rotation and Job design, and the original version, in ARR, was apparently completely useless, people just didn't realize it at the time.

"broken record"

Screw you.

This is the kind of nonsense that gets fights started here and then people go "Oh Ren, you're TOO sensitive"; you people do this all the bloody time to egg me on. The reason I use "..." or similar is because I'm trying to have a discussion with you, not poison the well. Yet MANY of you like doing this snippy/snarky bullshit.

I've been treating you with respect and not mocking and belittling you, even as you continue to do it to me, but that just set me off.

In essence, it's you saying "So, you know that thing you spent time on, trying to reach me with respect and well reasoned argument? You know your perspective, your analysis, your belief? What you think is true and are trying to share with me? Yeah..so I don't give a damn and think you and your feelings are garbage. Screw you!" That's what "broken record" in a quote means, whether you think it or not. At the VERY least, it's you saying everything I wrote is garbage and beneath even responding to, and certainly not worth your time. Which then leads to you making a "response" that doesn't address it and just spews vitriol, belittling my entire position and not even PRETENDING to understand - or try to understand - much less address, be concerned with, or be interested in compromise or conciliation.

The reason you can't understand is because you don't want to, and have decided you're too good to even try. That you already know everything you need to know, and nothing else is relevant.

...and they say I have an ego. /s

...because that is how you feel, and it's betrayed in that little snarky quip that you didn't need to make but chose to make unbidden against someone not being a dick to you.

So yeah, if you feel that way...screw you, too. Come back when you want to start acting like a respectful and mature adult. I'm tired of dealing with your nonsense and trying to be the bigger person in the face of your heckling.

(Seriously, I like your perspective on various things, even if I often disagree, I love your knowledge of the history of the game, including 1.0 stuff...but damnit, why do you have to do THIS sort of bull? Why? WHY!?)

Are we out here arguing that it’s wrong to want the ORIGINAL aesthetic for WHM back because some people now like the replacement aesthetic nobody liked at the ShB job trailer

"nobody" doesn't mean what you think it means.

I should also note WHM has had Holy since level 45 in ARR - actually since 1.0.

And no, this isn't the argument we had, it's just a facet of the overall insanity.