For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

...

And yet, for all your insistence that a difference in output doesn't matter and isn't needed...
...you're adamant that one needs to exist.

Which tells me that you aren't interested in "optional challenge", you're interested in that difference in output. Were you not, its existence wouldn't be relevant.

(As to the "just a couple pages ago"; Those are Askellington's numbers, not mine. Take it up with him.)

It is possible to do simple job with a high skill ceiling so I have no idea why you seem to be so against possibly rising it. More engagement can mean more than DPS or pure healing.

I agree it's possible - I also agree that it's not necessary on every Job.

Here's an example, DNC vs MCH. The two play nothing alike, despite sharing a role. MCH has a high burst APM, but has no procs. Its rotation could literally be the same from encounter to encounter. DNC, on the other hand, is the reverse. The RNG could make it where a given player could do an encounter dozens or even hundreds of times and not get QUITE the same due to the proc system. Should MCH be given procs? Should DNC have its procs removed? Or is it acceptable that some Jobs have distinctions?

I'm also - god I feel like a broken record and wish people would actually read before replying... - not "so against possibly raising it. By my own proposal, it would be raised in 3 out of 4 cases. The ratio 3:4 is 75% or, obviously, three-fourths. There is no world in which 3/4 = 0. So I'm not opposed to raising it at all - I encourage it. I'm opposed to ONLY raising it and doing so in ALL cases, however. Because that's the same situation we have now, just pissing off a different batch of people who now don't have something they enjoy.

I love how Ren keeps making these super min-max arguments despite the fact he seemingly doesn’t do savage

I do on occasion, just not often. Do a lot of other stuff, too, though. Eureka/Boaja, Extremes, etc. The problem with changing Job mechanics and balance is it changes it in the entire game. The only exception is if the change is limited to mechanics that themselves are limited to certain content; Lost Actions or Criterion Actions, for example. Otherwise the changes hit the whole game and everyone playing the Job.

This is even worse when there's no avoiding them. For example, what if I like Glare's VFX? And all these "proposals" are to remove Glare and make WHM into an Earth/Air/Water mage? Now what?

[Shurrikhan]

broken record

And the reason you're stuck on loop is simple:

You're saying that there exists a group of people whose experience would be ruined if they were allowed to do more with their kit, no matter whether its use were actually required in any way to do all that they did before. Which... still makes no more sense than if you were to say that there's a group of players who only do Extremes and under whose experience are ruined by Savage or Ultimate existing.

They're free not to use it. Yes, virtually all participation depends in part on relative reward, but one is free to simply choose for themselves where the reward isn't worth it for them anymore. Just as one does not need Savage BiS to go and grind maps for fun, one does not need the level of rotational effort required to clear Ultimates to have a satisfying experience with their kit.

And that would only be all the more true if kits offered complexity in between the "already saw this, in nearly its entirety, in every other job in this role" and "this is stupidly finnicky, over-rigid BS that lives or dies by my having less than 80 ping at all times".

For example, what if I like Glare's VFX? And all these "proposals" are to remove Glare and make WHM into an Earth/Air/Water mage? Now what?

This isn't even the same issue.

If you prefer pale sparkles, your solution is the same as for anyone who pushed out of the job by it being turned from an elementalist into the pale sparkles job. I'd be all for giving players skill-glamour options, but this is effectively "I stole this fair and square! They can't have it back!!"

[Supersnow845]

Are we out here arguing that it’s wrong to want the ORIGINAL aesthetic for WHM back because some people now like the replacement aesthetic nobody liked at the ShB job trailer

[Renathras]

And yet somehow I'm the one who got accused of having an ego /s

I get tired of saying the same thing over and over again, and of people acting like their perspective is the only perspective.

In any ideal world, I shouldn't have to present the diametrically opposed perspective, because you folks should be mature and adult enough to recognize it exists. Instead, some of you act like it doesn't exist at all, and seem incapable of even contemplating it, much less seeing it, much less accepting it, much less accommodating for it.

The worst part is, when I'm countering someone on your side, and another one of you picks up the counter as if it was a stand-alone position. Like Shurrikan acting like I went from "some unknown amount to 75%" when it was Askellington that made the 75% (2x25%s, to be precise) setup and I just went with his numbers.

Likewise, you're acting like I have an ego here when I was just presenting the opposed position to Askellington's own - I'll note you didn't accuse him of having an ego, so yay for double standards, I guess.

TL;DR: You aren't helping with quips like that.

.

As a DNC, I honestly enjoy the niche of supportive classes in any game, that my overall dps is actually part of other dpser's buffed performances.

I also like the idea of supporting the supporters like offhealing, helping tanks survive (RIP Palisade), without fully commiting to their roles.

I don't know if that is a good answer for the OP, but an observation is that I wish the game would be nicer to the supporting role, but I suppose that would require a huge overhaul of the combat system for it to ever be relevant.

No, I understand that. It's why the only DPS I will play generally are SMN or RDM. I hate being in a party (especially 4 man) and one person like the healer goes down, then it's a wipe because there's no way to salvage the situation. I always play classes that can heal in games, even if I'm playing a tank or damage dealer. Like here, my DPS of choice are SMN >> RDM >>>> others in roughly that order. I haven't done DNC much, but it would probably be in there a little below RDM. Likewise, PLD is my go-to tank for obvious reasons. Granted, WAR now outheals everything in the game, but I still like that PLD was more made for it, and still remember in ARR/HW where I had Cure 1 and Raise on my PLD as Cross-Class skills.

So yeah, I understand your answer perfectly well. It's something I wish the game did more of, but the combat system is just really rigid about stuff. To this day, I don't get why SMN's Physic hasn't been changed to scale off INT like RDM's does and still scales off MND instead. That made sense in ARR or HW, but doesn't really at this point. Especially since ShB split the SCH and ACN skills (the only skill listed under "Class" for SMN is Resurrection; the Physic it has is actually a separate ability in the game code that is only for SCH so if you manage to get it on your ACN/SMN bar, it's grayed out, and likewise, theirs is grayed out on SCH. So there's no coding reason for it not to scale from INT now.)

SCH/WHM changes:

I want to start by saying that I DO appreciate someone taking time to write out a long post, so I'd like to read through this all later, just not up to it at the moment. But I DID want to respond to this:

Something you should probably understand is you likely aren't the target audience for WHM. Just like I'm not the target audience for AST. Or BLM. Or etc.

This goes to the 4 healer thing that people don't want to acknowledge - the healers are ALREADY targeting different audiences, and always have since WHM/SCH in ARR. It's why so many here like AST and to a lesser extent (in most cases, in some cases greater) SCH. It's why the contrast between the views here and Wesk Alber's poll. Though even within Jobs, you find splits (for example, some people like White Mage and want a holy magic user, while others like CNJ and want a nature magic using Druid; hence part of the reason people constantly ask for a Geomancer because they think it would be...well...that).

So any changes I propose you probably aren't going to like. But as for the reasons:

.

WHM:

Holy - For people that want Holy as an "ultimate" White Magic (which it is in Final Fantasy lore). It's borderline insulting the White Magic counterpart to Meteor/Flare (depending on game), is a 140 potency AOE that hits like a wet noodle. Sure, it stuns, but Holy is generally the ULTIMATE White Magic spell, and FFXIV's version is kind of an insult. HOLY should be what Misery is in terms of power. Making it part of the single target rotation as doing more damage than FREAKIN GLARE would at least be a start. It would also break up the 1111 spam that people here insist all the time they don't like. While we COULD just use Misery for this and get the same end result, mechanically (just make Glare do the same thing for single target Holy does in the AOE rotation), that was the reason I specifically chose Holy there.

Assize - Exactly the reason you said; WHM being a more methodical, GCD focused healer. I'm fine without it stacking to 2, that's just to allow drift and not demand it be used on CD if you can either save it for burst or use it for healing. That's the reasoning for the 2 stack. For the GCD is two parts. One part is that WHM being a more methodical and GCD healer, and the other is to again break up the 1111 spam. Note I'm operating on the premise people here dislike pressing the same GCD button over and over (since they ignore any oGCDs that are pressed in the rotation), hence part of any solution would include having more GCDs as frequently used buttons.

Dia - Dia stacking, yes. ALL the Healers right now have an IDENTICAL 2111 rotation, with the 2 part of that being IDENTICAL. I want to break that up. SGE's is the most distinct right now since it works via Eukrasia in a pseudo-weave. Under my proposal, SCH would get additional DoTs (at least 1) that would affect its resource generation (and Miasma as a movement tool), SGE would have its DoT removed since it would be shifting to a Caster rotation instead, and AST would have its Combust remain like it is (since that's been AST's thing since SB, or maybe even HW?). So given that, if WHM's doesn't change, it's still identical to AST. And I want more than anything the Healers to NOT have identical rotations - something you guys SUPPOSEDLY want, too. People also all the time make comparisons between WHM and WAR, so I thought doing that with its DoT is a straightforward solution. This way, we have 4 healers that each have a different DoT in their rotation; WHM's stacks, SCH has several, AST has just the non-stacking one, and SGE has none.

...for all you people want to insist things need changing, it's REALLY odd to me that you all want to insist that Healers are NOT ALLOWED to have a stacking DoT. I get we disagree on a lot of things, but this is just a REALLY strange hill to die on.

Anyway, none of it makes you want to pick up WHM again...and that's fine. Ideally, AST would have the changes that you like incorporated so you can be happy playing AST and I can be happy playing WHM. That's...kind of the point. As to what it fixes; the proposal fixes the 21111 spam that everyone here says they hate. WHM's rotation would be 2(optional second 2)411131113112131113111311432... with spurts of 4/5 (Solace/Rapture) that would push back the 1/3 next in que, and 6 (Misery) once per minute (1 = Glare, 2 = Dia, 3 = Holy, 4 = Assize), which is a departure from 21111111111121111111111126 that we have right now. You may not find it THRILLINGLY different, but it's roughly similar to WAR or NIN's non-burst. And WHM's burst would probably be about double stacking Dia so you get 60 seconds of buffed DoT, placing a Misery in there, 2 Assizes, leading with an empowered Holy, getting a second Holy if possible, a third if you can cram it in. You can't tell me that's the same as leading burst with Misery, one Dia, then pressing Glare for the next 15 seconds.

.

SCH:

Excog: ...short CD? o.O Well, that's a new one on me. As to "why" upgrade: Note how I described SCH in that proposal. The goal was to increase rotational complexity but end the Job at a similar level of overall difficulty, which means reducing excess clunk/complexity. The reason for the upgrade is partly due to that end. Making the DPS more complex by making the healing simpler so that it evens out. People here all the time say healing is simple anyway (the healing kits), so this shouldn't change anything. It also reduces SCH's button bloat, which is a problem the Job has according even to Ty's poll.

Miasma: One thing I've always found bad about Bane is that it simplifies multi-DoTting - it's odd you'd argue for a braindead button to be added given your views against healer simplicity. I find buttons like Bane to be braindead. Another issue is that adding it would oppose one of the objectives - reducing button bloat - by adding an unneeded button. It's also why I tried to think of ways to add in that mechanic through other means, like Art of War. (Which would incidentally make Art of War distinct from Dyskrasia, so I'd take that as a plus anyway; in this case, the Art of SpreadingDebuffs, which does seem to go with the tactician theme). Deployment Tactics working for debfufs is a pretty hard no UNLESS the CD of it is slashed and it's given charges. Otherwise we have the "Energy Drain competing for Aetherflow" fight all over again. Note in PvP, Deployment Tactics has a CD of like 20 seconds, not 90 seconds.

[Also, that's supposed to be DoT, not HoT. XD Can tell from the next line where I'm discussing the potency of the DoT. Editing to fix that... The point was to make a Ruin 2 that you actually WANT to use as part of your rotation, but that can also still be a movement tool.]

Broil IV - Again, Bane/Deploy is NOT fine. I do think AoW would be the ideal here, though. It was a while ago I came up with this, and Art does seem to be the better vehicle for this. I think I discussed it in a reply somewhere in the thread...

Aetherpact - Because a lot of people find it useless BECAUSE of how the channel is interrupted. Maybe this is you being an AST main and not playing SCH, but it's something SCH's complain about. A lot. Even in this forum some of the regulars who play SCH frequently share the complaint. The Lustrate change was specifically to address what Sabezy said would be a potential issue of not having Lustrate and to maintain the optimization between Energy Drain that some people enjoy but a lot don't (Ty's survey, one of the most common requests for SCH was to decouple Energy Drain from Aetherflow).

Physic - Another proposal I've had is remove Esuna as a Role action and have all the level 1 cure spells upgrade into that Job's equivalent. Basically have the button upgrade to add the cleanse. E.g. "Cure 1 upgrades to Esuna, which has the 1 sec cast time, 400 MP cost, and heals 500 potency". It's more a button consolidation thing. I do agree Adlo is more distinct, which is why I've proposed Physic upgrade to Leeches, Cure 1 to Esuna, and...I forget the AST one, but it used to have one of its own in HW before they made Esuna Rolewide in SB. Not only would this mean a single button's worth of consolidation, it would actually lend to the flavor of each Job since the names could go to their own class fantasy more, and they could even have some secondary effect added (which Esuna can't due to being a Role action) to each one, like WHM's having a small HoT or AST's costing slightly less MP or SCH's having a faster cast time, etc. SGE would just have a trait that grants Diagnosis the cleanse effect (the name already fits anyway). So this latter change is a combination of class flavor and the original button consolidation/bloat reduction.

Energy Drain - Again, one of the most asked for things by SCH players is for ED to be decoupled from AF. I think this is funny because a separate group complains when ED is removed, insisting it's the height of optimization and skill balancing healing and damage...but also insisting the healing's not needed, so it shouldn't matter and people shouldn't complain. In any case, this change would retain the cost-benefit trade-off, while letting people use AF skills. Because, at least to me, Sacred Soil and Excogitation are interesting abilities that I like using. The "Roughly about the same" is intended to please those people by giving them that thing they can still work to optimize if they wish, while Eos having a on-demand mini-Lustrate is to deal with cases of Excog not being useful for the task (where a target has more than 50% health but not enough to outright survive an upcoming attack, thus making Excog not work for healing them), and removing the clunk of the channeled ability (Aetherpact is no different than Collective or Passage of Arms; abilities people don't like because of what they preclude if you sit and channel - yes, you can still take actions yourself, but that doesn't really make it much better since it still has the downsides).

Eos/Selene - Was...never a choice. Seriously. In SB, Selene's AI was somehow worse than Eos (I never figured out how it was possible, but it was definitely a thing), and through the game's history, either Eos or Selene was superior. Using the other was generally bad, and there was never a point in the game where power-swapping between them was really useful other than for Selene's AOE cleanse, which was niche then and even more niche now if we still had it. The speed boost (as we talk about with Arrow all the time) would be a negative in modern FFXIV rotation and Job design, and the original version, in ARR, was apparently completely useless, people just didn't realize it at the time.

"broken record"

Screw you.

This is the kind of nonsense that gets fights started here and then people go "Oh Ren, you're TOO sensitive"; you people do this all the bloody time to egg me on. The reason I use "..." or similar is because I'm trying to have a discussion with you, not poison the well. Yet MANY of you like doing this snippy/snarky bullshit.

I've been treating you with respect and not mocking and belittling you, even as you continue to do it to me, but that just set me off.

In essence, it's you saying "So, you know that thing you spent time on, trying to reach me with respect and well reasoned argument? You know your perspective, your analysis, your belief? What you think is true and are trying to share with me? Yeah..so I don't give a damn and think you and your feelings are garbage. Screw you!" That's what "broken record" in a quote means, whether you think it or not. At the VERY least, it's you saying everything I wrote is garbage and beneath even responding to, and certainly not worth your time. Which then leads to you making a "response" that doesn't address it and just spews vitriol, belittling my entire position and not even PRETENDING to understand - or try to understand - much less address, be concerned with, or be interested in compromise or conciliation.

The reason you can't understand is because you don't want to, and have decided you're too good to even try. That you already know everything you need to know, and nothing else is relevant.

...and they say I have an ego. /s

...because that is how you feel, and it's betrayed in that little snarky quip that you didn't need to make but chose to make unbidden against someone not being a dick to you.

So yeah, if you feel that way...screw you, too. Come back when you want to start acting like a respectful and mature adult. I'm tired of dealing with your nonsense and trying to be the bigger person in the face of your heckling.

(Seriously, I like your perspective on various things, even if I often disagree, I love your knowledge of the history of the game, including 1.0 stuff...but damnit, why do you have to do THIS sort of bull? Why? WHY!?)

Are we out here arguing that it’s wrong to want the ORIGINAL aesthetic for WHM back because some people now like the replacement aesthetic nobody liked at the ShB job trailer

"nobody" doesn't mean what you think it means.

I should also note WHM has had Holy since level 45 in ARR - actually since 1.0.

And no, this isn't the argument we had, it's just a facet of the overall insanity.

[ASkellington]

Snip

I've already gone on record saying WHM isn't for me as in I don't like its simplicity. My point in bringing up your changes is that, even with them, they wouldn't make me want to retry WHM - which is something I want to do, simple or not. Your design changes should make me interested in playing WHM at least once to see if the rework is worth it like SMN. It doesn't. I want something to draw me into playing WHM other than "well its the simple healer" yeah it can be simple still but I want the class to be engaging. Nothing you've done to change has made it that more engaging. For the most part you've made it more boring.

Dia stacking is a worse decision simply because Dia is set and forget as is. You aren't making Dia more interesting with the change. You're making it LESS interesting. So it stacks. So what? Its exactly the same as AST reapplying its DoT at 30s. The idea of having Dia proc is a much better idea.

Holy is fine as is. It doesn't need the Meteor treatment for WHM fantasy. It being the ultimate WHM skill in other games and different here is fine. Just like AST being a blend of Time Mage and Fate is fine. Its something new to the game specifically it doesn't need to change. Misery is what they chose for the job. I think its out of no where, the entire lily system included since it started off as CNJ but I think its fine having Holy be the AOE.


Excog is on a short CD relative to the current encounter design. Any time I need it, its up and ready to be used. This isn't part of the Button Bloat I'd like to see fixed.

Bane/Deploy is fine. Bane was removed for 0 reason and could be brought back. Don't want Bane back? Deployment Tactics is right there as evident in PvP. Its odd that you think DT wouldn't get either charges or a reduced recast with this change. Broil IV makes it clunkier. You're applying 2 DoTs, using your single target ability to apply them, and then spamming AoW. AoW could also spread it, but it feels a bit more kit cohesive in making DT do it. (I like the PvP kit, sue me)

Changing the Cure 1s of the healers into Esuna is never going to jell with me. For several reasons. A good chunk of statuses that exist don't require a heal as they don't do damage or don't have damage attached to them. And the ones that do? Slap a HoT or leave it alone because its a DoT and it hits like a wet noodle. Further I see little reason to take a role action and give it flavors like p.Ranged's defensive buffs (...which lack flavors but you get the point). Of all the changes this is the one I'd least like to see. Or at least extremely low on the priority list.

Also Aetherpact is vastly different than Collective. You can time Collective's bubble for the mitigation part and when you no longer need it, stop the channel and the HoT is still applied. The only part that's channeled is the migitation iirc (and the HoT is still only applied in the 8-10y SE don't you DARE "fix it"). Further I like Aetherpact on a toggle. I like the idea of being able to use it to heal for a short amount of time and then stop it. The problem is... nothing else uses the Fey Gauge where I want to do that. If it were more like Collective in the way that there is a choice between channel vs not I think I'd be more attached. But I digress. Point is, I don't see why Aetherpact needs to turn into a Lustrate because you upgraded Lustrate into Excog. Just keep Lustrate then and either remove Aetherpact or make it do something else or do something with pet AI to make it better instead.

Speaking pets, just because Selene was useless in the past doesn't mean it had to be continuously useless. That's literally why AST cards are nothing but Balance. Because Balance was "always favored" and instead of either bringing up the other cards and/or nerfing Balance we'll just make them all Balance. You can change Selene to be worth something and I argue you should. Damn what SE did by deleting it.

Energy Drain being decoupled... was a problem because when SCH had nothing to spend their stacks on, they were stuck with nothing but healing. I think it can stay but moving it to the Fey Gauge is fine. I don't think its a great change but I'm not over all attached to the idea.

Also Holy having existed since FFXIV does not mean that SE should have gone and turn Stone and Aero into Glare and Dia. WHM has its roots in CNJ, it should retain them. Dia and Glare could have been added on, perhaps as procs if they really wanted to add in the Light. It makes sense thematically for Shb it doesn't really make sense going off the lore of CNJ/WHM and yeah, no one asked for Stone/Aero to be taken away and replaced with Dia and Glare. Unless you can find a post or two before Shb. People may want to keep it NOW but I highly doubt anyone asked for it before.

[ForsakenRoe]

Please go back and reread my post in full Ren, rather than getting to the cynical 'ego' quip I made as a joke (clearly marked with a /s to imply I was not being serious about it) and then skipping the rest. I wouldn't have made said quip if you weren't using language like you were 'saving one job' from damnation. If there's a range of views specifically for WHM, from 'I want massive changes' to 'I want nothing to change whatsoever', then I'd argue that it stands to reason that, rather than shifting all of the changing around such that one job gets exempted from the changes entirely, a more measured approach is used and the WHM, the 'simple, easy-to-get-into healer' remains as such, even after it's changes. Rather than giving it 'nothing', giving it comparatively less than it's counterparts yes, but still giving it a bit more than it has now, while keeping it's design simple and easy to understand, even with the additional kit. You have 'Glare three times, Holy gets stronger and can be used in ST', that's simple. I have 'press new button once per 15s', that's not just simple, that's literally what WHM had in ARR/HW (Fluid Aura), but now it's a GCD.

If you want a political example:

consider four public services: Police, Fire, Healthcare, Postal Service. Views of the citizens would vary from 'don't raise taxes at all' to 'increase funds for our public services'. Essentially, you're taking the 'don't raise taxes' viewpoints and saying 'okay, in order to satisfy everyone, we're raising the budgets for the Postal Service, Police, and Fire department. But not the Healthcare system, because some people don't want their taxes to be raised, and we need to respect that viewpoint'. Yeh it needs to be respected, but instead of going 10/10/0/10, you could do eg 10/9/4/8, because if you didn't boost the Healthcare budget, political opponents (and probably citizens) will be asking 'ok you boosted the budgets of stuff, but why not Healthcare?' and the same would likely happen here, you'd have people asking constantly 'Why did WHM get hung out to dry by SE?' and it'd likely start to bleed into PF mentality, WHM got nothing = WHM still sucks to play = WHM sucks = WHM is bad = Block WHM from PF. It's spaghetti logic, but PF operates entirely on spaghetti logic at times

I don't want to respond to every tiny thing, but I will say that you can go look at the 'ultimate Black Magic' (source: FF5), Flare, and see that it too is relegated to being an AOE tool. Additionally, Freeze is an AOE tool, and Burst/Quake/Flare/Tornado do not even exist as yet (at least, for players to use). Well, I guess Burst is in PVP. Maybe that's what BLM's getting for 7.0, anyway, Holy's position is consistent within FF14 by comparison to it's counterparts, but I doubt anyone would be opposed to seeing some kind of trait that makes Holy deal additional damage under certain conditions, to better fit it's previous incarnation's power level (Flare kind of has this with Astral Fire buffing it to be 80% stronger than it's listed potency, for example). Also, others might be trying to remove the 'twinkly lights' aesthetic in favor of the elementalist one, I'd just have both. Then the complaints can be changed from 'i miss the elements' to 'why is my aesthetic the filler and not the cool moment-of-power'

And for everyone's favorite point, Energy Drain, I do wonder how much of the opposition to it's removal/reworking is that if you don't have it, well, it feels bad to use Addersgall to overheal just for MP economy, but some say that it is nice not having to feel like they're punishing themselves for using an AF heal instead of Energy Drain. So if we had a two-pronged change, whereby ED was replaced by, idk, a singletarget shielding OGCD (which can be spread by Deployment), solving the 'there is nothing to spend AF on if no healing is needed' issue somewhat, AND adding a different source of 'complexity' to optimize in the class, then I feel like some of the opposition would die off. I don't think people are married to the idea of Energy Drain as a skill, but what it represents as part of the kit, and what a glaring hole is left when it's invariably removed. Also, Bane used to be less 'brain dead' because it cost you an AF stack in HW and earlier

[Supersnow845]

I’m not gonna argue about you not understanding (or refusing to acknowledge) hyperbole ren

Prior to ShB launching there was absolutely no unified will to turn WHM into a disco ball, people were fine with its current (at the time) aesthetic and wanted changes to its actual systems (lily’s say hi) to make it compete with AST and SCH

Saying now it can’t be changed back when there was never community will to change it in the first place is dumb

[kyyninen_kirahvi]

I agree it's possible - I also agree that it's not necessary on every Job.

Here's an example, DNC vs MCH. The two play nothing alike, despite sharing a role. MCH has a high burst APM, but has no procs. Its rotation could literally be the same from encounter to encounter. DNC, on the other hand, is the reverse. The RNG could make it where a given player could do an encounter dozens or even hundreds of times and not get QUITE the same due to the proc system. Should MCH be given procs? Should DNC have its procs removed? Or is it acceptable that some Jobs have distinctions?

I'm also - god I feel like a broken record and wish people would actually read before replying... - not "so against possibly raising it. By my own proposal, it would be raised in 3 out of 4 cases. The ratio 3:4 is 75% or, obviously, three-fourths. There is no world in which 3/4 = 0. So I'm not opposed to raising it at all - I encourage it. I'm opposed to ONLY raising it and doing so in ALL cases, however. Because that's the same situation we have now, just pissing off a different batch of people who now don't have something they enjoy.

So you are not against raising the skill ceiling, but only if there are differences in the between how actions work between jobs? I agree with that. That comes naturally when you let the jobs evolve naturally within their theme and nature.

I don't really play samurai, but what I understand it's a job that you can easily pick up but it's somewhat hard to master. Why shouldn't a healer be like that? E.g. WHM or SGE? It would take nothing from the role and it would only make the job feel better to play. You could still clear content with them but to master them you have to work for it.

The way I read and understand your 1 out of 4 proposal is that one job should work like you can do basic actions and always heal the party as necessary while the other three are given the permission to evolve and have a versatile kits that don't always work well.

As I've said somewhere before, there are no incentives to use your full healer kit unless you decide to do so. DPS and tanks(?) have to. The easiest solution to this is evolving existing actions or pruning them. Even this could make the jobs feel different and better. It could also lead to new direcions.

Just so you know. I have nothing against you, but I'm trying to understand why you're so adamant about this.

[Wilford111]

I enjoy Dancer’s gameplay. I like that the rotation involves adapting to a light amount of RNG elements. I like the burst. I like that, while playing as a Dancer, I still pay a lot of attention to my teammates and the boss to utilizing healing and mitigation.

But ultimately, why I play Dancer and not Sage, despite liking Sage’s style and aesthetic much more, is because as a Dancer, I feel like I’m playing the game. The entire point of MMO cooldown-based combat is picking the right tool for every moment—making choices between all your actions. Playing as a Sage, or any healer, I am robbed of that experience. Constantly, you are shoved into dead windows where nothing is happening, where I could go grab a glass of water while doing controller inputs, come back, and see nothing has changed, because the majority of the “choices” I make are all the same button: Dosis.

I have, in the past, used Sage in dungeons, and would aggressively try to slap barriers in each party member individually and hope that at least 3 break just so I could have another button to use on trash pulls, but it felt like pulling teeth to try and get an incredibly mediocre extra 3 button presses. I shouldn’t need to bend over backwards to experience what the combat system is supposed to elicit. It should be available by default.

At the end of the day, its not about how many buttons are damage, healing, utility, or attack buffs, it’s about 4 jobs under the same umbrella being denied to gameplay experience this combat system is made to create. And that is game design failure.

I feel like the devs will look at this comment and think that people want healing to be harder. I know what you are trying to say, but if I were a dev that didn't play the game, that's how I would interpret this.

My fear is that the devs will take the role that's already the hardest and make it even more difficult, pushing even more people away. Be sure to word things correctly and specifically.

[ChonkGoblinSuprem]

Adding a DPS rotation to Healers is the worst idea I’ve ever heard. No other job needs to pay close attention to and often quickly target different members of the party to apply heals or Esuna. Whatever “endgame” content you are grinding on right now apparently has a bunch of instant kill mechanics, but as someone who still runs leveling roulette, there is already enough for healers to keep up with. As if pressing three buttons in sequence is somehow better than pressing one button…. lol nah.