I was almost in the mood to play FF14 again

[Deo14]

I don’t remember much for Red Mage but I was a Bard main in Stormblood but gave it up when Shadowbringers came out because the made a fairly large overhaul to how the job played. Stormblood Bard was essentially much more support oriented than what we have currently. The songs gave a passive crit boost to all party members (which was cool but also like game-breaking level of powerful lol), Troubadour gave different effects depending on which song was active (max HP increase, physical damage reduction and magical reduction I think it was).

A really important aspect of Bard was also getting the most out of Foe Requiem, a song that still worked like the songs of 2.0-3.0. It had GCD cast time initially but I think it became 1.5 cast at some point, drained MP, and was an aura around the Bard that increased magic damage taken (can’t remember what it was by Stormblood since it changed a couple times, at one point in like 2.0 it was just elemental damage lol). It had a bunch of utility cooldowns from role actions like Palisade, Refresh, and of course Peloton.

Also Bard had a significant interaction with DoTs and Criticals that simply doesn’t exist anymore for the job. DoT ticks used to give Bard its procs each time they were critical, which made it heavily focused on snapshotting Iron Jaws during buff windows, building for critical hits and necessitated being more mindful with your DoTs and uptime. Mage’s Ballad was somewhat affected as well by both this and the Bloodletter stack/proc changes, as it changed the rhythm of Bards attacks quite a lot.

Come Shadowbringers the critical hit interactions were removed, Foe Requiem was like deleted from the game entirely, Palisade / Refresh / Tactician no longer existed as role abilities, they even stopped making our songs buff the party at one point lol . Bard has had major changes in everything from what it’s core focus is (DoTs / Crit / Support) to how it actually feels to play.

Long post and I’ve likely misremembered some stuff lol, but basically, we Bards feel the Samurai’s pain, SE has been doing us dirty for years lol

As a Shadowbringers baby, this sounds like a different game to me. MP used by job that isn't caster/healer/DRK? Job which leaned heavily into support category, instead of being regular replaceable job, that just does oonga boonga and has maybe 1-2 weak raidbuffs?

As I pointed out in different thread, game seems to have same amount of job designers as it had all the way in ARR, while game has double the amount of jobs, so this simplification and loss of identities seems to be the result.

[Shurrikhan]

I did not start at Stormblood, I started at Shadowbringers. Wouldn't mind reading if anyone would like to share what happened with Bard and Redmages changes either mhm.

Shadowbringers Bard essentially lost even the pretense of any above-average party support utility, along with generally making their rotation a fair bit more dull.

• Heavensward Bard: Sustained frequency of DoTs roughly halved compared to ARR due to the addition of Iron Jaws (though at least that makes maintenance more strict and often shortens their effective duration by 1 GCD, since you could previously let them drop after getting the server tick and reapply before the next server tick), but with a new rotational weaponskill per 6 GCDs (that functioned mostly half like an oGCD, since it incurred but did not respect the global cooldown), a sniper vs. mobile stance (decent concept, but very poorly iterated upon), and a couple other new CDs to play with. Support functions remain granular but at-cost (to raidbuff uptime, 10% personal DPS, and a GCD for swapping). Their filler's proc also became more valuable for the mobility it offers at no cost during sniper stance. I think it was here also that the LB3 was changed from Healer-LB3 to Caster-LB3-but-as-a-Line-Attack?
  
  
• Stormblood Bard: Support functions gutted insofar as their gameplay, becoming instead CDs that are basically hit on CD after their first use per fight going towards personal threat reduction. Stances removed. Frequency of DoT/buff GCDs reduced again (now at 2 per 12 GCDs, down from ARR's 3 per 7 GCDs). In place of songs offering support tools aside from the still-granular raid buff, they now create a new system of rotated stances that are freely ordered initially but cannot really be chosen between thereafter. Battle Voice changed from a versatile support-capable tool to a generic raid buff. Filler's proc replaced with a new action, such that one maintains their buff shot per 30s. ARR's original DoT interaction limited to a single song/rotary_buff, but the other two gain new DoT interactions. Lost job-synergy interactions with Warden's Paeon (namely with post-Berserk pacification), but did get access to Palisade as a wonky single-target mitigation buff.
  
  
• Shadowbringers Bard: Buffing GCD removed (iirc?), reducing sustained non-filler/procced_filler actions yet again by 50%. Even the vestigial support functions were removed. Granular raid buff removed, leaving only Battle Voice. Added Apex Arrow. Barrage now grants the new proc so it can't become desynced by more than a single GCD. Palisade removed.
  
  
• Endwalker Bard: Non-filler/procced_filler actions reduced yet again (from 1 per 12 to 1 per 18). All DoT interactions removed. Apex Arrow gets a part-2. Radiant Finale added, which can at least (poorly) pretend not to be a simple 120s raid buff.

Red Mage didn't particularly get hit with any new gameplay issues, iirc. He was just saying it's what he swapped to because of Bard, in his opinion, becoming less appealing due to its ShB changes.

[Shurrikhan]

game has double the amount of jobs, so this simplification and loss of identities seems to be the result.

This isn't a necessary cost, though, of higher job counts.

The problem is when the game adds nothing more for kits to leverage, or refuse to make use of kit distinctions.

If they want every job to necessarily be equally advantaged in all content, then yes, we'll have homogeneity... but that holds true for 2 jobs per role as much as for 10 jobs per role.

[Renathras]

As a Shadowbringers baby, this sounds like a different game to me. MP used by job that isn't caster/healer/DRK? Job which leaned heavily into support category, instead of being regular replaceable job, that just does oonga boonga and has maybe 1-2 weak raidbuffs?

As I pointed out in different thread, game seems to have same amount of job designers as it had all the way in ARR, while game has double the amount of jobs, so this simplification and loss of identities seems to be the result.

I think the issue, for better or worse, is "balance".

Stripping "hard to balance" things (like buffs) from Jobs is a lot faster way to balance them then actually working at several complex systems to try and achieve that. (Especially if the team is small, but I think they decided to do this regardless of that for whatever reason.)

Like in the extreme case of Jobs being just their base abilities (heals and damage) with their potencies, it's relatively easy to balance that. But when you add modifiers and buffs on others and debuffs on enemies that make some skill types stronger against them and abilities that work based on when other party members do things like crit which depends on their skills and stat builds, and other abilities that affect ally attributes and things like crit chances, etc etc; that becomes far more difficult to balance.

It seems like they want to make fights that are spectacle and a precise dance/puzzle that players have to figure out and memorize, but also want Jobs to be within 2-3% of each other so that the high end min-maxers won't blacklist people from their PFs, which then cascades into more of the community doing so (even when it's completely irrelevant), which seems to be a hyper-fear.

The thing that truly confused me in ShB was when they announced DNC. They said they were removing all party buffs from BRD since they didn't think Jobs should buff other party members and should have their own things instead. In a vacuum, that's an "Okay, fair enough, eager to hear more" situation. But then they immediately turn around and say "...and we're also introducing this new Job, Dancer, which will work by buffing other party members." It just seemed so contradictory. Then after mass complaints, they added BRD's buffs back when they should probably have just not removed them in the first place.

.

I don't know the cause for this, but I think it's a combination of balance and accessibility, both fueled by a fear of the developers of Jobs being blacklisted from normal content. Whether fair or not (it HAS happened before, so...kinda fair) of the Devs to fear that, I think it is a big driver. The real confusing part is why they leave the ones that they do, even when remaking Jobs (e.g. SMN and Searing Light).

It'll be interesting to see what they do with AST in 7.0, that's for sure...

[Supersnow845]

snip

Very balanced ren and I agree with almost everything you said here, BRD being shoved aside for DNC was a stupid marketing decision and BRD still hasn’t recovered from it (soul song is basically just a reactionary “oh people liked DNC more than BRD in ShB so let’s give BRD technical step” completely ignoring why people didn’t like BRD in ShB), their also almost adamant refusal to even consider the thought of balancing around higher job systems (like for example melee never liked relying on phys ranged for TP but the idea that each party member bought something essential to the raid is not inherently a bad thing, the removal of refresh style skills also limits healer design because they play both healer and support) and their unending terror at repeating the 2.0 WAR, 3.0 AST/PLD situation seems to still be affecting their job design philosophy today

Your point on the fights being spectacles is also noticeable to anyone who played coils on patch (or did a MINE run with extra self imposed punishments as MINE still doesn’t really simulate coils well), coils feels like a down and dirty desperate fight against an enemy who will pull out any trick to defeat you, modern fights feel like a grand spectacle where the boss preaches to you and tries to almost show off, having this philosophy means you really can’t simulate fights like T12 or T7 (for all 7’s problems) which are control fights, if you are juggling future mechanics before they happen and having lots of little errors pile up it takes away from that “grandiose” feel they go for

I’m also interested (though in like a morbidly curious way) to see what AST in 7.0 is like and if they can fix the regen healers

[Shurrikhan]

I think the issue, for better or worse, is "balance".

Stripping "hard to balance" things (like buffs) from Jobs is a lot faster way to balance them then actually working at several complex systems to try and achieve that. (Especially if the team is small, but I think they decided to do this regardless of that for whatever reason.)

Agreed. However...

The problem is that even that effort to minimize the task of balancing is generally self-defeating, because it pretty directly/proportionately also narrows the range of imbalance the community will tolerate. The harder the situational value of utility skill A, buff B, passive C, etc., is to quantify for purposes of balancing... so too is it harder for the players to reduce perceived job value to a singular non-contextual graph.

The easier the devs make it to seemingly find some sort of answer for total contribution by trimming kits' its situational factors, etc., the more reliable and precise at-a-glance data is perceived to be and the more willing the community will be to shun job A for even an incredibly modest drop in rDPS+aDPS relative to the best in its role.

Naturally, other factors play into this, of course, such as the perceived skill of PuGs relative to the requirements of meeting Enrage. The "gag order" players play under as a result of mod witch-hunting is often overblown, but again perception is going to be the larger factor than reality, and a community feeling like their ability to teach and learn from each other is restricted by a barbwire ToS (that some will allegedly take apart in an attempt to whip others with) does no favors to PF requirements.

That often leads to increased filtering of the available playerbase --sometimes to absurd levels of ilvl requirement inflation or job lock-outs-- which in turn can make content feel inaccessible for all the wrong reasons (didn't play enough Savage on release week / didn't grind tomestones hard enough / can't find space for the job you sunk gear into / didn't get lucky enough with loot / don't enjoy the FotM jobs).

[Burmecia]

On the other hand: these problems you have, my dude

[kajv95]

Shadowbringers Bard essentially lost even the pretense of any above-average party support utility, along with generally making their rotation a fair bit more dull.

Red Mage didn't particularly get hit with any new gameplay issues, iirc. He was just saying it's what he swapped to because of Bard, in his opinion, becoming less appealing due to its ShB changes.

Yea pretty much, was reluctant to post until I had everything remembered that made me quit (I pretty much quit the game for most of Shadowbringers/Endwalker's life and all) and even forgot about the whole "songs dont affect the party" thing Bard had at the time. stupid.

Red Mage just has its usual issue of "you have movement and a raise therefore you aren't allowed to have good damage" even though that's not really been much of a rule in casterland since, well, red mage became a thing really.

There are some things that can be said about red mage and it's wonky issues it's still plagued with to this day but ultimately it didn't really change *too much* and quite a few bits and pieces have been addressed overtime. Just... being arbitrarily kept at low strength is kinda dumb cause you can say what you want about raises being "too strong" but if the red mage needs to tap into its ability more than a summoner, that pull is pretty much a wipe anyway so why is it even a thing?

In terms of game feel, Red Mage flows very well and is pretty satisfying (the more proc-based nature of it reminds me of my old dear bard q-q) but when playing any other caster in the game you can actually feel how underwhelming your attack strength is despite having complications that are not necessarily difficult to handle, but unique to the class.

[Rolder50]

If the issue is just "Shinten is used too much" then what needs to happen is a review of Kenki economy, including how much is gained through combos, and how much is spent via skills.
We already have SIX Kenki spenders, it's too much already.
I would say that Guren and Senei need to have their cooldowns and potencies reduced so that you're replacing more Shintens with Seneis. (halve each for each would be a decent start, still aligns with 2 minute window)
Then reduce some of the Kenki gains on weaponskills so that you're not capping on Kenki so fast. Have all weaponskills provide only 5 Kenki (other than Enpi at 10), then maybe boost Hagakure to 15 Kenki per Sen instead of 10 to compensate, and actually give Hagakure some potential use.

I have an idea, how about we add an ability where you can spend kenki to increase the damage of your next attack? But it's only worth the cost to use on your big hits, so you have to manage your kenki such that you have enough to spend on big hits, but use the rest on other action? That would certainly add some thought to how you use kenki, and reduce how much you just mindlessly spam Shinten.

[CelestiCer]

I have an idea, how about we add an ability where you can spend kenki to increase the damage of your next attack? But it's only worth the cost to use on your big hits, so you have to manage your kenki such that you have enough to spend on big hits, but use the rest on other action? That would certainly add some thought to how you use kenki, and reduce how much you just mindlessly spam Shinten.

G-Gee... That sounds Am-Amazing...
I really wonder which Skill we lost that managed to grant us that G-Gameplay you describe? mhm...

( GIVE IT BACK DX< !!! )