Please finally fix Tank, DPS and Healer roles SE

[Shurrikhan]

They should just rework the Roles into actual Roles.

DPS goes all greedy, no longer needing to rely on syncing their buffs allows for more freedom in design.

Tanks... personal defensives get condensed.

Healers... they will now be the main players with party and target player buffs... Heal bloat gets condensed a bit.

All this just looks like pure reductions across the board...

Do we really need even greater simplification?

If you want as much more healing and mitigation requirements as would be the case from removing Feint, Addle, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Waltz, Mantra, Minne, Magic Barrier, Everlasting Flame, Aquaveil, Exultation, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Sacred Soil's mitigation, Kerachole's mitigation, Life Surge's healing, Nascent Flash's healing, Shake it Off's healing, Intervention's healing, Heart of Corundom's healing, etc., you could acheive all that by just... increasing the damage dealt by/in whatever attacks/content was already survivable without those tools.

And if you want healers to have more support tools... you just add them. It doesn't require removing them from the other roles.

[ThaCa]

All this just looks like pure reductions across the board...

Do we really need even greater simplification?

If you want as much more healing and mitigation requirements as would be the case from removing Feint, Addle, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Waltz, Mantra, Minne, Magic Barrier, Everlasting Flame, Aquaveil, Exultation, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Sacred Soil's mitigation, Kerachole's mitigation, Life Surge's healing, Nascent Flash's healing, Shake it Off's healing, Intervention's healing, Heart of Corundom's healing, etc., you could acheive all that by just... increasing the damage dealt by/in whatever attacks/content was already survivable without those tools.

And if you want healers to have more support tools... you just add them. It doesn't require removing them from the other roles.

Removing buttons to make room for better ones. The most bloated part of current kit gets condensed so they have actual room for redesign. All those boring af stuff can be replaced by more dps buttons and other enjoyable stuff instead of having 5 buttons that do practically the same thing but on slightly different cooldowns.

[Supersnow845]

All this just looks like pure reductions across the board...

Do we really need even greater simplification?

If you want as much more healing and mitigation requirements as would be the case from removing Feint, Addle, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Waltz, Mantra, Minne, Magic Barrier, Everlasting Flame, Aquaveil, Exultation, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Sacred Soil's mitigation, Kerachole's mitigation, Life Surge's healing, Nascent Flash's healing, Shake it Off's healing, Intervention's healing, Heart of Corundom's healing, etc., you could acheive all that by just... increasing the damage dealt by/in whatever attacks/content was already survivable without those tools.

And if you want healers to have more support tools... you just add them. It doesn't require removing them from the other roles.

Though there is a strong argument to be made that DPS and tanks have too much mitigative capability and the tanks have too much in the way of defensives (though to fair square is allergic to auto damage for some reason) and it enchroaches on the healers, think every single non healer job has at minimum a 5% mitigation (feint or addle on the wrong element), RDM MCH and PLD have 2 and DNC has a healer level AOE heal if you stack yourself and your partner

On the tank front healers now basically don’t interact with tankbusters, tanks handle the busters the same way every time (if it’s a single kitchen sink it, invuln it the second time if it happens again within a set period, if it’s a double one tank kitchen sink one invuln then do the reverse the next time the buster comes up)

I’m totally in favour of them pulling 90% of the support buttons back to healers, giving healers back their defined niche in the party that goes beyond “I press my heal after raidwide goes out” and frees up support buttons for the DPS to get more interesting buttons. And apparently the DPS like that considering you have to bono the DPS over the head in PF to ever get them to press feint or addle

[Shurrikhan]

Though there is a strong argument to be made that DPS and tanks have too much mitigative capability and the tanks have too much in the way of defensives (though to fair square is allergic to auto damage for some reason) and it enchroaches on the healers, think every single non healer job has at minimum a 5% mitigation (feint or addle on the wrong element), RDM MCH and PLD have 2 and DNC has a healer level AOE heal if you stack yourself and your partner

On the tank front healers now basically don’t interact with tankbusters, tanks handle the busters the same way every time (if it’s a single kitchen sink it, invuln it the second time if it happens again within a set period, if it’s a double one tank kitchen sink one invuln then do the reverse the next time the buster comes up)

I’m totally in favour of them pulling 90% of the support buttons back to healers, giving healers back their defined niche in the party that goes beyond “I press my heal after raidwide goes out” and frees up support buttons for the DPS to get more interesting buttons. And apparently the DPS like that considering you have to bono the DPS over the head in PF to ever get them to press feint or addle

I get that, but again: Having more on to do on Role A does not require removing tools from Role B and Role C. You can just deal with the bottleneck itself (raising the healing/mitigation required, by virtue of raising the base incoming damage).

I'm all for replacing some of this lackluster minor mitigation or raid buff BS (Feint/Addle, Magic Barrier, Battle Voice, etc.) with more interesting skills, but that doesn't require reserving a whole slew of capacity to a single Role each. It only requires that no Role's skills go to waste by too low a ceiling for the need/capacity in question (especially the Role that is most designed to deal with that need/capacity).

And while a stacked Curing Waltz is nice, it's also only barely over a single Medica's value per minute. (Remember that all Healers' heals are actually 130% of their listed potency, due to the Maim and Mend II trait, while Physical Ranged merely get 120% of their listed damage, with no benefit to healing, and all other roles get nothing. A Medica is therefore 520 cure potency in any other Role's terms, vs. Curing Waltz's maximum of 600.)

[Sani2341]

I get that, but again: Having more on to do on Role A does not require removing tools from Role B and Role C. You can just deal with the bottleneck itself (raising the healing/mitigation required, by virtue of raising the base incoming damage).

As the only reason Role A has so little to do is their niche being spread out to role B and C in ever increasing amounts, yes that is absolutely necessary.

Esp. As we are already at a point where a bad Tank+Healer have a surprisingly high Chance to not clear normal content,
While a good Tank will be a bore for every moderatly skilled Healer even in your daily expert Roulette.

If you blindly increase the dmg to the point a good tank and good Healer are not bored in normal content, passable ones will struggle to clear and the bad ones might not even be able to finish the dungeon with Trusts.


Imagine how playing tank would feel if Aggromanagement could be done by DPS just pressing a shirk clone on cd, while all the mitigation could be solved by healers putting a shield or regen on you.

Sure average groups would still want a Tank just in case or because they could be queued with a random DPS unwilling to press the shirk button. But any decent group could eoptimize the Tank away for an extra dps to speed up their daily Roulette.

[Shurrikhan]

As the only reason Role A has so little to do is their niche being spread out to role B and C in ever increasing amounts, yes that is absolutely necessary.

The cheapest meal for three costs $15. You have $12. Your friend, Dee-pee-ess, has $3. Your other friend, Taenhk, has $5.

For whatever reason, you each feel like you must spend all of your money.

Is the most obvious solution, then, (A) to instead go to a nicer joint, where the price is nearer your collective limit ($20) or (B) to demand your friends bring less money so that you can better use up all of yours?

Now, of course, in this case, you're also asking them to lose gameplay, too, all so that you don't feel like your own options are made as redundant when going for content tuned too cheaply/easily for you/your available output.

Imagine how playing tank would feel if Aggromanagement could be done by DPS just pressing a shirk clone on cd, while all the mitigation could be solved by healers putting a shield or regen on you.

Except, again, aggro is relational; the more damage DPS do, the more aggro tanks must generate/have transferred to them. It's also a non-mechanic (and never has been a mechanic in XIV beyond a brief game of "The Price is Right" in guessing how much Enmity your lead-Enmity DPS will produce over the fight to determine at which GCD in your opener you'll turn your tank stance off for the rest of the whole fight -- a period in which, btw, DPS had aggro management, as they had since the start of the game.)

Healing requirements, on the other hand, is not relational. They do not go up as DPSs'_damage/Tank_enmity_and/or_mitigation goes up. Healing requirements are finite. That's why your tools are becoming redundant in content you have far more than the necessary output for.

Which doesn't mean you need to strip away gameplay. It just means you need content options that actually use up all your collectively available resources so they aren't rendered redundant.

Note that every Role does damage. Yes, you could replace the majority of tank's kits instead with 0-MP-cost Flash spam and remove all attacks from healers so they wouldn't step on the toes of DPS, but would that improve DPS gameplay?

[LilimoLimomo]

Note that every Role does damage. Yes, you could replace the majority of tank's kits instead with 0-MP-cost Flash spam and remove all attacks from healers so they wouldn't step on the toes of DPS, but would that improve DPS gameplay?

I agree that this wouldn't improve DPS gameplay, but that's because the problem that damage output solves isn't remotely as ephemeral as the problem that healing solves. By definition of the way that FF14 works, until a fight is over there is DPS that needs to be done. The same is simply not true for healing. If everyone is topped off and has shields or whatever, there is no longer a benefit to doing healing stuff until the situation changes. That's why over-healing is a concept but in all my years of FF14 I've never once heard anyone talk about over-DPSing, because DPS is always needed.

When non-healers do the healing or mitigate, that leaves healers with less of a job to do. There are lots of ways to design content and classes so that this isn't a problem, but it's an important dynamic to be aware of.

[PyurBlue]

Now, of course, in this case, you're also asking them to lose gameplay, too, all so that you don't feel like your own options are made as redundant when going for content tuned too cheaply/easily for you/your available output.

I suppose, but I would not consider healer really a major component of tank gameplay. I really dislike WAR's ability to self heal. It's too high and while it may feel fine for them, it's terrible for healers. I wouldn't mind if tanks lost all self healing. To you're point though, tanks could keep the healing and other changes could be made to balance it out. Yet even in that case I don't see a situation where a tank like WAR should ever exist in dungeons. If healers aren't going to be the exclusive source of healing, they should at least excel at it far beyond other roles.

Yes, you could replace the majority of tank's kits instead with 0-MP-cost Flash spam and remove all attacks from healers so they wouldn't step on the toes of DPS, but would that improve DPS gameplay?

It might. If party DPS is so high that a DPS can't even start their rotations before things die, then yes, cutting tank and healer DPS would help. It would also definitely very clearly shift the responsibility for clear time, at least via damage, on to the DPS since no one else would be able to contribute.

Anyway a partial solution to the role dilemma that I like is designing combat with more optional damage in mind. What I mean by that is include more sources of avoidable damage, but let there be a tradeoff involving damage done (or maybe something else) that comes with the damage inflicted on party. As an example, imagine a boss that has an AoE attack that is either right or left, but which ever side the AoE is on also opens a weakspot. To hit the weakspot you need to be standing in the AoE, and will take damage because of this. The party could choose to take the risk of attacking the weakpoint, or the safety of avoiding the AoE and doing the usual amount of damage. Something like that would add increased healing challenge that rewards skilled healers while also leaving an option for less skilled healers.

One potential problem with this is the expectations of the current playerbase. Most players have become accustomed to avoiding all AoE's. I can pile on massive shields in dungeons that boss attack cannot break and even mention it to the party and most people will still try to avoid AoE's. There are also some players that expect nothing but optimal play from everyone. To avoid these issues, the optional damage idea could be added initially to a new kind of content, possibly some kind of midcore content that the game is currently lacking. Or when queueing, there could be a checkbox for "playstyle" allowing players to separate themselves into casual and optimal.

[Shurrikhan]

It [removing all-damage dealing from non-DPS] might [help DPS gameplay feel more engaging in itself]. If party DPS is so high that a DPS can't even start their rotations before things die, then yes, cutting tank and healer DPS would help.

...Or, again... just increase the mobs' damned health?

In what world is "Gut half of all players' gameplay" a decent solution to "Things die too quickly"?

[Sani2341]

Is the most obvious solution, then, (A) to instead go to a nicer joint, where the price is nearer your collective limit ($20) or (B) to demand your friends bring less money so that you can better use up all of yours?

You really want to make everyone that currently already struggles leave the game huh?

Not only is your example fundamentaly flawed in that Tanks and DPS can already cover everything themselves without Healers if your execution is tight enough even in frikkin ultimates.
You also again completely ignore the worse than average players who could barely scrap by right now.

To stay with your example, if enough food to not starve is 15, just because jobs A B and C could scrape together 20 bucks between them, does not mean the average combo of A B and C manage more than 14.50.