A question for SCH mains and enjoyers

[Supersnow845]

I have to admit - I am so tempted to add this to my signature

Go ahead haha

[Renathras]

Not to sound like a broken record, Aravell, but it's rich you saying this when I just pointed out a few posts earlier you trying to do the same thing against me with the "bad faith" remark. In short, you did the "I know you are but what am I?" first (technically in that case it was Ty, but you're the one that jumped to call me it instead).

For my part, I'm trying to get away from all this tit-for-tat. I like discussing points and mechanics and contrasting arguments and so on, but people here before have gotten onto me - a lot - for threads derailed (even if someone else derailed them), for calling names (even if someone else did that first), and so on, and I've realized that other than Sebezy (shoutout to her), and increasingly half-way with Vetch (shoutout to him) in extremely blatant cases, no one will ever come to my defense or call out anyone else for doing those things.

So it falls to me to start saying "Okay, I can see this conversation isn't going anywhere. Let's be mature adults, agree to disagree. Agree that this isn't productive conversation. Realize that we probably aren't changing each other's minds, and move on."

When you try to deliver a "parting shot" (or two. or three.), I know no one is going to stand up for me and point out I'm trying to do the healthy thing and ask you not to do that. I know that they're going to Likebomb your post instead with the parting shot, because for all the arguments against me on tone and civility, no one here actually cares about those concepts, they just want to use them as cudgels against someone they disagree with. If they actually DID care about them, they'd be telling you your comment was unfair or saying I was probably making the right call. Maybe Sebezy or someone will surprise me, but it hasn't happened yet.

But, I'm actually trying to take to heart those things we discussed before - you were there, remember? - about civility and people not being at each other's throats or having bad "tone" in their posts and so on. So I'm stopping this line of...discussion...because it's not productive. You can make your parting shots, but they don't change anything. And if people would rather like your posts than call you out on it, all that does is prove no one actually cares about civility and all that stuff (other than, ironically, me).

I'm not exiting this conversation because I'm somehow the stubborn one and you're oh-so right and oh-so not stubborn. I'm exiting this conversation because it's negative, isn't doing anything useful or productive, and because there's nothing further to discuss.

[Aravell]

Not to sound like a broken record, Aravell, but it's rich you saying this when I just pointed out a few posts earlier you trying to do the same thing against me with the "bad faith" remark. In short, you did the "I know you are but what am I?" first (technically in that case it was Ty, but you're the one that jumped to call me it instead).

For my part, I'm trying to get away from all this tit-for-tat. I like discussing points and mechanics and contrasting arguments and so on, but people here before have gotten onto me - a lot - for threads derailed (even if someone else derailed them), for calling names (even if someone else did that first), and so on, and I've realized that other than Sebezy (shoutout to her), and increasingly half-way with Vetch (shoutout to him) in extremely blatant cases, no one will ever come to my defense or call out anyone else for doing those things.

So it falls to me to start saying "Okay, I can see this conversation isn't going anywhere. Let's be mature adults, agree to disagree. Agree that this isn't productive conversation. Realize that we probably aren't changing each other's minds, and move on."

When you try to deliver a "parting shot" (or two. or three.), I know no one is going to stand up for me and point out I'm trying to do the healthy thing and ask you not to do that. I know that they're going to Likebomb your post instead with the parting shot, because for all the arguments against me on tone and civility, no one here actually cares about those concepts, they just want to use them as cudgels against someone they disagree with. If they actually DID care about them, they'd be telling you your comment was unfair or saying I was probably making the right call. Maybe Sebezy or someone will surprise me, but it hasn't happened yet.

But, I'm actually trying to take to heart those things we discussed before - you were there, remember? - about civility and people not being at each other's throats or having bad "tone" in their posts and so on. So I'm stopping this line of...discussion...because it's not productive. You can make your parting shots, but they don't change anything. And if people would rather like your posts than call you out on it, all that does is prove no one actually cares about civility and all that stuff (other than, ironically, me).

I'm not exiting this conversation because I'm somehow the stubborn one and you're oh-so right and oh-so not stubborn. I'm exiting this conversation because it's negative, isn't doing anything useful or productive, and because there's nothing further to discuss.

My problem with you is that you stand your ground and fight where it doesn't matter, but when I'm trying to have a productive discussion with you, you start off fine, asking me for clarifications, which I give, and then when I ask you a question in return, you just vanish without a trace and never answer my questions. I can't ascertain your intentions because you always deflect or vanish when I'm trying to have a productive discussion, that's why I'm leaning towards you being here in bad faith. If you want to prove me wrong, maybe actually answer me in the productive discussions instead of perceived attacks upon your person.

EDIT: Also I wasn't defending Ty, I was pointing out that an inaccuracy in your statement. I've defended you before when people were being extremely unfair to you, you're also being extremely unfair to the healer forums, I'm calling you out on that.

[Renathras]

My problem with you is that you stand your ground and fight where it doesn't matter, but when I'm trying to have a productive discussion with you, you start off fine, asking me for clarifications, which I give, and then when I ask you a question in return, you just vanish without a trace and never answer my questions. I can't ascertain your intentions because you always deflect or vanish when I'm trying to have a productive discussion, that's why I'm leaning towards you being here in bad faith. If you want to prove me wrong, maybe actually answer me in the productive discussions instead of perceived attacks upon your person.

You do see how many people I answer in my posts, right? It's possible I may just miss some of yours. I also am not here all the time. I'll go days here and there (or weeks) without coming to this place sometimes.

You've seen me give lengthy answers to your and other people's questions, so it's somewhat confusing to me you think I'm evasive. I'm the one person that will give you FAR MORE than you ever wanted when you ask me questions, and I try to be thorough and will make follow-up posts to clarify points or additional questions.

Like point me to some of those threads, and provided I haven't used up my post quota for the day, I'll see what I can answer.

[Aravell]

You do see how many people I answer in my posts, right? It's possible I may just miss some of yours. I also am not here all the time. I'll go days here and there (or weeks) without coming to this place sometimes.

You've seen me give lengthy answers to your and other people's questions, so it's somewhat confusing to me you think I'm evasive. I'm the one person that will give you FAR MORE than you ever wanted when you ask me questions, and I try to be thorough and will make follow-up posts to clarify points or additional questions.

Like point me to some of those threads, and provided I haven't used up my post quota for the day, I'll see what I can answer.

I can see that you reply to a lot of people and that you write a lot of detail, I don't dispute that. But I put forth a question to you in 4 threads where we were having a healthy discussion beforehand, I never got any answer. Can you see how, from my point of view, that looks like dodging the question? I understand that you don't come here everyday, neither do I, it doesn't change the perception though, especially when we were already having a good discussion before that point.

As for the actual questions, they're all in threads that are dead and buried, I can't be bothered to necro the threads and dig them back up.

[ForsakenRoe]

I never got any answer. Can you see how, from my point of view, that looks like dodging the question?

Maybe he can't give you one, cos he's burned all of his daily post limit on threads asking 'how do you feel about X healer' again, like the answer's gonna have changed

[Supersnow845]

Maybe he can't give you one, cos he's burned all of his daily post limit on threads asking 'how do you feel about X healer' again, like the answer's gonna have changed

I swear he posts endless threads asking the same questions as if he will get different answers so he can use that as an excuse to calm us an echo chamber

[Aravell]

I swear he posts endless threads asking the same questions as if he will get different answers so he can use that as an excuse to calm us an echo chamber

I wouldn't say all of his threads are bad, some of them do spark some interesting discussions.

[Supersnow845]

I wouldn't say all of his threads are bad, some of them do spark some interesting discussions.

Some of them are good I agree, but he’s got to start asking varied questions

No matter how many times you ask “how do you find WHM” you are going to get roughly the same answer

[Renathras]

I can see that you reply to a lot of people and that you write a lot of detail, I don't dispute that. But I put forth a question to you in 4 threads where we were having a healthy discussion beforehand, I never got any answer. Can you see how, from my point of view, that looks like dodging the question? I understand that you don't come here everyday, neither do I, it doesn't change the perception though, especially when we were already having a good discussion before that point.

As for the actual questions, they're all in threads that are dead and buried, I can't be bothered to necro the threads and dig them back up.

Okay...three things:

1) If you can't show me what it is, not only can I not answer it, I can't verify your claim, not can I speculate why I didn't answer it the first time. It not only doesn't give me a chance to address it, it doesn't give me a chance to even argue my innocence, which is pretty unfair.

2) Given my general exuberance to answer questions asked of me when I see them (or even answer things not directed at me), it's pretty unlikely I just ignored a question. It's more likely I didn't see it. Again, you don't dispute that I do this, so the logic follows it wasn't willful if I didn't respond. Given how UN-dodging I address questions, it's very unlikely I was dodging any.

3) Given the above, the rational conclusion is that I'm not acting in bad faith. That as a perception seems like jumping to conclusions. But since you have nothing to point me to, I can't even see if that might have been the case (e.g. did I just not post in here for a time or not post in those threads, was I still responding to others, etc.)

It feels like that scene from Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail where he gets onto his dad for never sitting and talking to him, Henry says "Well, I'm here now. What do you want to talk about?" Indiana kind of dithers, then when prodded, says "I can't think of anything.", to which Henry replies "Then what are you complaining about?!" If you tell me I didn't answer questions, but can't point me at them or think of what they were, it has that same kind of feel.

I'm not accusing you of foul play here (I understand how hard it is to find some specific thing in another thread), but I think the three points above are the crux of it. Given how much I DO reply, and given we can't find the posts to verify, the logical interpretation is PROBABLY that I didn't see them or was away for the time you asked them. If you think of them again in the future, open invitation, ask me any time and I'll try to give you an answer.

Fair?

.

EDIT:

Maybe he can't give you one, cos he's burned all of his daily post limit on threads asking 'how do you feel about X healer' again, like the answer's gonna have changed

I swear he posts endless threads asking the same questions as if he will get different answers so he can use that as an excuse to calm us an echo chamber

This, btw, is the kind of thing I'm always talking about...

I wouldn't say all of his threads are bad, some of them do spark some interesting discussions.

Believe it or not, I'm always trying to figure out what people think. It should be obvious by now that I'm interested in compromise, possibly more than anyone else here. But part of that requires understanding other people and what they want. And something I've learned in life is that you can ask a person about the same topic twice, but in different ways/wordings, and get slightly different answers. And sometimes, the key to understanding comes from that difference. Something perhaps not mentioned the first time that seems minor, but that is the key to understanding.

Some of them are good I agree, but he’s got to start asking varied questions

No matter how many times you ask “how do you find WHM” you are going to get roughly the same answer

That's why I have.

I've over time gotten to where I try to ask for more specifics - "more to do during downtime" is a general idea, but not very precise. If I propose "how about more healing?", the answer might be "Sounds good" or it might be "Not that!". It's also why I started the 4 recent threads, to see if keeping each Job's discussion distinct, it can help narrow the discussion.

We have a lot of good discussions (and love me or hate me, I seem to be starting a lot of the ones here), but it's easy to get lost in a lot of them or not get the same answers. Asking "What do you like about DPS Jobs" doesn't really tell me what you specifically dislike about SCH. It might give me ways to make suggestions for things to do with SCH (as I once did: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-Proposal-SCH ), but given how many proposals I've made and how many have been rejected, things are still missing that might be avenues overlooked.

I can't merely accept "make everything into BLM" (hyperbole, but you get the idea), but you guys can't accept "leave even one Healer alone in the state that you really like right now". So, if there's a compromise - and I believe there's almost always a compromise to have (as long as one side isn't intransigently stubborn and unwilling...) among mature adults - then it's still elusive, but that doesn't mean it cannot be found.

But to find it requires seeing something that's still missing.

So I ask questions to try and find the missing key(s).

.

Also, some people's views or interpretations change over time. Like Nizzi's post in the SGE thread talking about how SGE and SCH are different and how SGE being weaker and not even comparable is so apparent to them. Maybe they've said it before, but I haven't seen it, so that's a new take from that person to me, and I thought a very well thought out and put together one, worth having. If those threads did nothing but produce that comment, I think that's valuable. And they've produced more besides, so even more valuable.

.

...what are you doing to further the compromise?