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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semirhage View Post
    Sure, it's a "caricature". The unchanging line in the sand for every single one of your arguments is that you absolutely, positively, *must* have a healer that cannot develop a skill ceiling above what it has right now. Non-healing utility? "You just want to be a support". Damage rotation? "You just want to play a DPS". "Some people don't like damage rotations". On and on and on.

    I'm sorry, what part of that isn't "no skill ceilings allowed"?

    At least be honest about what you want. You call it a caricature because it makes Sylphies look like disingenuous liars. Which they are, but they at least understand that's not a good look.
    Sadly it isn't quite just skill ceilings that he's against. It seems that he's against anyone that is more knowledgeable than him at all.
    (13)

  2. #152
    Player
    Striker44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,140
    Character
    Elmind Exilus
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    I’ve yet to see renathras or striker even present an argument for why all 4 healers need to be 4 versions of watered down 4.0 WHM (including having useless gauges)
    I've actually commented on this in several threads over time, though I believe most frequently about tanks rather than healers. I generally enjoy the way they structure the classes within a role. For someone like me with relatively limited time to play (at least compared to years ago), knowing that every tank, for example, is going to have the same baseline set of abilities (e.g. an attack combo-sequence, a Bulwark, a larger 20% dmg reduction, an immunity, etc.) and then augment it with some unique specific skills - it makes it much more feasible to try out the different classes and see what I enjoy most. I'm confident I'll have the basic idea of what to do, and can focus my limited time on learning those specific abilities that make the class distinct.

    Healers are even more varied in that regard, with the separation between "pure" healers and "shield" healers. And DPS even more so with the mix of melee, ranged, physical, magical, etc.. Heck, even within magical DPS a BLM plays very different than an RDM.

    As to your question regarding perceived difficulty (we'll ignore the wild inaccuracies of your personal take on "rating" them), what developer wants to spend time creating a class that very few people will play? FFXIV of today is the WoW of 2005 (while the WoW of today has become the EQ of 2005). It's the MMO targeted most directly at casual gamers who are looking for a relaxed, fun experience playing a game. It's part of what helped WoW become the first mega-blockbuster MMO, and part of what is driving FFXIV to thrive today and continue growing with each expansion. (And heck, some of WoW's big changes like introducing different raid difficulties, LFR, etc., was in large part because such a minuscule % of the playerbase was actually engaging in the raids. It was demoralizing to put so much work into making something that so few people were actually doing.)

    Because they will feel bad if the game makes them feel that they suck. So sadly we are now in a state where everyone must be made to feel competent despite their incompetence.
    Sadly it isn't quite just skill ceilings that he's against. It seems that he's against anyone that is more knowledgeable than him at all.
    Are you okay, Titan? I almost feel sorry for you.
    (3)
    Last edited by Striker44; 07-30-2023 at 04:09 AM.

  3. #153
    Player
    Mcg55ss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Posts
    466
    Character
    Sirk Raven
    World
    Maduin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 93
    Quote Originally Posted by Koros View Post
    Seriously, I don't even know where people get the idea that 7.0 is going to fix or even partially fix the problems with this game, it's not just one or two people, it's like the majority of the playerbase.

    If you don't like the game at all, unironically save yourself the money and quit now because at this point this game is irredeemable. There's literally no point in waiting for 7.0 to fix anything. Spoiler: they won't. Only reason to stick to this game is for secondary, non-game purposes.

    Let me just spoil the ending for all of you: FF14 is going to start failing, slowly, Square Enix is going to put this on maintenance mode in like 8.0 or 9.0 or something, maybe they'll try to revitalize it but fail.

    CBU3 has like literally no idea how to make interesting progression systems, there is not a single exploratory content or horizontal content that succeeded with the entire playerbase. They just don't know how. They also fired some devs and leads who disagreed with the vision of the game (rumor), clearly they're not open to feedback either. So don't huff the copium really, no need to wait for 7.0. It's already over.
    Nty i am enjoying the game its enough to keep me subbed and if a new game comes out i feel like i want to grind for a bit (like remnant 2 just did recently) i can stop playing as much and grind that out without feeling like i have lost everything due to not playing for a few weeks.
    (0)

  4. #154
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,715
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Striker44 View Post
    I've actually commented on this in several threads over time, though I believe most frequently about tanks rather than healers. I generally enjoy the way they structure the classes within a role. For someone like me with relatively limited time to play (at least compared to years ago), knowing that every tank, for example, is going to have the same baseline set of abilities (e.g. an attack combo-sequence, a Bulwark, a larger 20% dmg reduction, an immunity, etc.) and then augment it with some unique specific skills - it makes it much more feasible to try out the different classes and see what I enjoy most. I'm confident I'll have the basic idea of what to do, and can focus my limited time on learning those specific abilities that make the class distinct.

    Healers are even more varied in that regard, with the separation between "pure" healers and "shield" healers. And DPS even more so with the mix of melee, ranged, physical, magical, etc.. Heck, even within magical DPS a BLM plays very different than an RDM.

    As to your question regarding perceived difficulty (we'll ignore the wild inaccuracies of your personal take on "rating" them), what developer wants to spend time creating a class that very few people will play? FFXIV of today is the WoW of 2005 (while the WoW of today has become the EQ of 2005). It's the MMO targeted most directly at casual gamers who are looking for a relaxed, fun experience playing a game. It's part of what helped WoW become the first mega-blockbuster MMO, and part of what is driving FFXIV to thrive today and continue growing with each expansion. (And heck, some of WoW's big changes like introducing different raid difficulties, LFR, etc., was in large part because such a minuscule % of the playerbase was actually engaging in the raids. It was demoralizing to put so much work into making something that so few people were actually doing.)





    Are you okay, Titan? I almost feel sorry for you.
    If you have limited time why not just be happy with one class you know how to play, why force the rest of us to play watered down copy cat classes because you want to feel “comfortable” on every class you play

    And as for your second point about why should square make classes like that well it’s because if you actually read the data on this I sent a few pages ago that type of class already existed and people liked it more than they like current healers so…….
    (18)

  5. #155
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    196
    Quote Originally Posted by Striker44 View Post
    For someone like me with relatively limited time to play
    Ah, I see. Your job demands much of your time. After all, no one else is going to defend Square Enix on the forums.
    (17)

  6. #156
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    Join Date
    Jul 2023
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    196
    Quote Originally Posted by Striker44 View Post
    Someone needs to learn what "literally" means. Personally, I haven't heard any complaints about it game, and I myself enjoy healing.
    Will you address Theodric's expose of your litany of claims made with absolutely no data? Or are you content to mass report everyone on the forums?
    (11)

  7. #157
    Player
    Griss's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    The Void
    Posts
    1,806
    Character
    Griss Stilgar
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    op seems like the type of person who gets personal fulfillment by making contrary claims and hoovering up the fall out
    (3)
    An Aware, Informed, and Critical community is vital for the success of a game.
    ~ John "Totalbiscuit" Bain

  8. #158
    Player
    Snorky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    655
    Character
    Akiimi Akagane
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Koros View Post
    Seriously, I don't even know where people get the idea that 7.0 is going to fix or even partially fix the problems with this game, it's not just one or two people, it's like the majority of the playerbase.

    If you don't like the game at all, unironically save yourself the money and quit now because at this point this game is irredeemable. There's literally no point in waiting for 7.0 to fix anything. Spoiler: they won't. Only reason to stick to this game is for secondary, non-game purposes.

    Let me just spoil the ending for all of you: FF14 is going to start failing, slowly, Square Enix is going to put this on maintenance mode in like 8.0 or 9.0 or something, maybe they'll try to revitalize it but fail.

    CBU3 has like literally no idea how to make interesting progression systems, there is not a single exploratory content or horizontal content that succeeded with the entire playerbase. They just don't know how. They also fired some devs and leads who disagreed with the vision of the game (rumor), clearly they're not open to feedback either. So don't huff the copium really, no need to wait for 7.0. It's already over.
    Doom and gloom, in other news lunch was awesome today!
    (1)

  9. #159
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    Jul 2023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griss View Post
    op seems like the type of person who gets personal fulfillment by making contrary claims and hoovering up the fall out
    If it's that contrary why did it get 40 likes
    (11)

  10. #160
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    2,345
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    I’ve yet to see renathras or striker even present an argument for why all 4 healers need to be 4 versions of watered down 4.0 WHM (including having useless gauges)

    Let’s be super generous and say they actually are the majority and the playerbase is satisfied with healers on the whole (I’ve presented evidence to the contrary but let’s go hypothetical) there is still a strong undercurrent of being annoyed at modern healers (especially from the older playerbase), what’s stopping them from making 1 or 2 of the 4 healers something that we want

    If current WHM is a 1 and HW SCH is a 100 on the scale of difficulty then current AST is about a 15 and current SCH is about a 7, why is it impossible to conceive one of them could be a 75, not every healer needs to accomodate people who spam diagnosis and call it a playstyle
    To be fair to the guy (great another part of the forums he's antagonizing), he does say he wants 3/4 of the healers to be 'more than they are', ie AST gets more support effects from cards, SGE gets more Disc-Priest-like, and SCH gets it's DOTs back. The issue I have with his take (and probably others), is that he insists one of the healers must stay 'as is' because some players like the current playstyle. Now, I went to university for this kinda stuff, so I had a crack at making a redesign for WHM. Since then I've actually managed to come up with 'something' for each of the healers, but let's take WHM since it's the one Ren really wants to keep the same.

    My redesign, from a 'damage rotation' perspective, reduces the duration on Dia to 12s (refresh it 5x per min instead of 2x), and adds a new instantcast GCD called Water/Banish (Stone/Glare upgrade style), with a separate 15s CD so you'd use it 4 times a minute. I have done the maths, to balance the current rotation as we know it now, and the hypothetical rotation from playing this new design optimally, such that the difference between playing that new design 'as we do now' (that is to say, refresh Dia on CD, Glare spam, ignore Banish) and the 'full optimization' of that new design, as 160 potency per minute. That difference is comically small, crit variance would play a bigger role.

    Alongside that one extra GCD damage skill, I also had listed:
    Blessing of the Elementals, a GCD AOE heal that costs a new Gauge built by doing damage or healing with non Lily heals, and empowers Glare, Dia and Banish into...
    3 Elemental Capstone skills, Quake Tornado and Flood, which would replace Glare/Dia/Banish on your bars for one GCD (their potency gains over their basic forms makes BOTE damage neutral)
    Stoneskin > Afflatus Bastion and Sanctuary, ST and AOE Shield generating Lily spenders to reduce your wasted healing thanks to 'have to prep Misery for raidbuffs'. Weaker than SCH/SGE shields to keep them relevant
    Protect > Plenary, actually one of Ren's ideas ironically, giving WHM a 60s mit to compete with AST's bubble
    Divine Seal back as a lower level Temperance (without the mit), upgrading to Temperance at 80
    Cleric Stance as a simple 10% damage increase for 10s, on a 60s CD, to give WHM a burst window cadence similar to NIN's Trick/Mug
    Afflatus Tragedy, a lower version of Misery that deals 800p (would be comparing to 4 Stone IVs which is 880, so still a loss but not as bad as current pre-Misery where it's 100% lost potency)
    A trait that has Cure1 upgrade to Cure2, keeping it's MP cost at 500 for both
    A trait that has Medica 1 upgrade to Medica 2, keeping it's MP cost at 1000 for both
    A trait that has Cure 3's MP cost halve from 1500 to 750 if the WHM is under the effect of Medica 2's HOT

    Oh yeh, and some niche wants: Lilybell is reduced to 3 charges, but 90s CD (gives it a niche of 'it's up twice as often' as an answer to the sheer power of Macrocosmos), Tetra finally getting 2 charges, and swapping Rapture/PI's learn levels so Rapture's at 70 and can be used in UCOB

    And since it's in HB tags to save space/make the message less long, I can do this: here's a video of me using the current rotation, and here's a video of me simulating my proposed design's rotation. With just one added button, and one shortened DOT duration, we can see from this that the impact on the rotation would be surprisingly large. It'd take time to relearn, sure, but we have to relearn DPS rotations each time an expansion comes out, and I see this as being no different.

    Also because I love to repost them and illustrate the current situation/what we could have if SE just stole my ideas (please, I'm begging them to), here are two graphs, one is our current 'GCDs used in 1 min as WHM' and the other is 'GCDs used in 1 min on Samantha's redesigned WHM':




    So yeh, all in all, the majority by far of my changes to WHM would be healing/mit/support stuff, not damage. Yet Ren objects. He has told me that I'd be causing groups the world over to wipe, because the healers would not be able to handle the complexity bump, lose DPS and hit enrage timers. All because of a 160p per minute difference (just over half a Glare). See, the issue isn't that 'it'd be too hard for casuals', me and others who make these kind of ideas make sure to consider that. That's what we have to deal with when Ren gets involved, basically every time. The kind of mentality we (and I guess by extension the devs) have to work around whenever it comes to considering 'what can we do to salvage this dying role'. I think he yearns for the good old days of 'cast Rejuvenation on each raid member, one at a time', but I don't exactly see 'put Regen on every raid member one at a time to conserve MP' as particularly thrilling gameplay. After all, it just swaps us from using one button (Glare) constantly, to a different button (Regen), used at the same rate. Same issue, but now at least the number's green, woo!

    It'd be fine if it was just 'yeh let's make all the healers more interesting, but keep WHM as the relatively simple/easy to get into one' (as I aimed for with above suggestion). Again, the issue is that he wants to have one left exactly as it currently is re: how it does damage, which would likely become ostracized by the community for being 'the trash one' or 'the one noobs play', we saw SB WHM get dunked on for 2 years and we don't need it to happen again. Funny enough, my SGE design leaves the SGE damage kit almost entirely untouched, instead focusing more on improving how it converts damage to healing (and making Toxicon a bit more interesting than just being 'scuffed Ruin 2'), but I guess Ren didn't bother reading that one. Must have seen 'Samantha is adding an extra damage GCD to WHM' and mentally tuned the rest of the thread out

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNight View Post
    If it's that contrary why did it get 40 likes
    People respect the Drakon Grind (tm), nobody else is able to create as many inflammatory threads in General as fast as he, his fingers are so fast they're probably classed as lethal weapons in multiple states
    (2)
    Last edited by ForsakenRoe; 08-01-2023 at 05:21 AM.

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