A question for SCH mains and enjoyers

[Post]

The faerie gauge feels weird because it was added in StB when YoshiP felt that every job needed a fancy unique UI element, but SCH was already a well designed job.

So, they just added Aetherpact and made you naturally accumulate gauge playing SCH the same way you already would and weakened Embrace, the Faerie auto heal, and removed Rouse, an ability that would enhance all pet spells, so that Aetherpact could feel strong and called it a day.

StB SCH was fine overall, but Aetherpact and Faerie Gauge feel like bloat because that's exactly what they are: extra actions that did the same thing SCH already did with more work involved so they could have a flashy job actions trailer.

[ForsakenRoe]

If Fey Blessing had evolved to be 'pulses AOE healing at cost of gauge, as an AOE version of Union' instead of 'scuffed Indom', it'd probably feel a bit less tacked on. Still not ideal, but at least it'd be considered a 'good part of the SCH kit'

Maybe they'll make it like Oath, where fairy heals generate 5 gauge per heal and 'currently aetherflow spenders' cost say, 25. And ED stays as the lone AF spender so there's no conflict of 'damage vs healing' for AF stacks anymore. And very few people would complain about 'oh but what do I do when I'm capped on fairy gauge' because look how often we're capped on Sheltron Gauge or Fey Gauge atm. I feel like I'm always up at 100/100 on the Fairy Gatorade Bar because the tanks heal themselves so much now it's hard to find a good spot to use the damn thing sometimes

[FairyDJ]

The only skill Faerie gauge is used for is Fey Union thats when you spend the charge. It has it's very niche purposes outside of that it holds no real significance.

[Renathras]

Why is that a bad thing?

EW SMN.

If you take an existing thing that people have gotten used to being a certain way, and people play it because it's that way (and many SCH players do), then changing it into something else is robbing them of the thing they like, which is generally going to be a bad thing and create resentment.

Creating a NEW thing that does this is fine - for example, suppose SGE had been introduced this way - as that doesn't rob from an existing audience and people that take up and choose to main the new Job know what they're getting into with it.

Sometimes major reworks can be necessary, but they should be last resorts for the EW SMN reason, especially if they threaten to completely change the Job overnight. You could argue SCH has shifted to its present form, but it largely did so over time. ShB aside, SB saw a reduction of its damage kit before ShB (to the point they had to add some things back), so that shift was at least a gradual one.

But all that aside: As people on this very form are quite fond of saying - CBU3 does not have a great track record of major reworks. See AST in every expansion for an example. I think you might should wait to see if they're able to manage that one in 7.0 before running to ask for another.

...and the "suffering an unsustainable, terrible design philosophy" is not fact, please don't try to use that to justify positions.

EDIT:

The faerie gauge feels weird because it was added in StB when YoshiP felt that every job needed a fancy unique UI element, but SCH was already a well designed job.

This.

SB WHM got a Lily Gauge since it seemed someone up high insisted "Every Job must have a Job Gauge now". We also saw this with things like Shelltron and Oath Gauge. Several Jobs that didn't really need a Job Gauge got one tacked on. And the silly thing is, SCH already HAD ONE with Aetherflow.

I don't know who made that decision, but it was a silly one.

If Fey Blessing had evolved to be 'pulses AOE healing at cost of gauge, as an AOE version of Union' instead of 'scuffed Indom', it'd probably feel a bit less tacked on. Still not ideal, but at least it'd be considered a 'good part of the SCH kit'

Honestly, instead of removing the Gauge cost, they could have just removed the CD. 30 Gauge is still pretty hefty, so that would be a natural limiter of at most 1 per minute (~1.3 if you count Dissipation used on CD), so it'd be the same as it is right now in practice. I find far more times I'd like a kick of AOE healing than I find I need focused slightly-better-Embrace.

I would complain in your example, though, as that would make it like SMN's "press AF then spam ED on CD", which is just dumb. (Well, optimal SMN uses them during 2 mins, but you get the point). If ED is the only spender, that's stupid. I much prefer AF to be for Lustrate/Indom/Excog/Soil. Just dump Energy Drain. Hell, even in Ty's survey, one of the most requested changes for SCH was "decouple Energy Drain from Aetherflow", not "make Energy Drain the only thing Aetherflow is useful for and make it fuel a second Aetherflow gauge that does the actual healing". I don't recall ANYone suggesting that, actually.

SCH's role is Healer. It's primary resource should be based on healing, not damage. You guys somehow have this exactly backwards, I think.

As I said in my suggestion thread on SCH changes, make ED work on Faerie Gauge. I find way more time I'm capped on gauge and need to spend it than times I find myself capped on AF since I routinely use it on Excog and Soil. Actual healing buttons. Let me burn gauge on ED - the gauge I'm ACTUALLY capped on all the time and need a spender for.

[Supersnow845]

By your own logic your normal assertions that SCH shouldn’t get its DOT’s back is wrong because it was the original version of SCH

Regardless if they decide to do a massive rework of SCH to a totally new healer people who like current SCH (no idea why) have SGE which is basically the same healer but 5% worse in most categories

[ty_taurus]

EW SMN.

Sure, a rework has a chance of total failure, but it also has a chance of success. The Ninja rework was largely seen as positive, and both Machinist and Monk have some criticisms but are generally revered positively as well. Even White Mage's Lilies, while not being nearly enough to satisfy many of White Mage's critics on its own, was still a solid step forward for the job.

Risks are an important part of a live service game. Not ever decision will pay off. What's commendable is learning from the risks that fail and continuing to try. Diadem was a thing that failed, but it didn't kill the game, and its failure ultimately improved the game.

...and the "suffering an unsustainable, terrible design philosophy" is not fact, please don't try to use that to justify positions.

If the healer design philosophy is not a failure, then why is it only the healer role that receives this level of visceral negative feedback at all anywhere? Why don't you see pages of thread topics about how horrible the design of Dragoon, Reaper, Dancer, or Red Mage are? If healer design is as well-constructed and well-received as those jobs, then where are the pitchforks and flame torches coming for those jobs? You can say "Because it's the forums" but we don't see the same reaction to those jobs also here on the forums. If forum-goers are only about unreasonable hatred and negativity, then every job should be equally lambasted if the design of them all is of equal quality.

[ForsakenRoe]

Honestly, instead of removing the Gauge cost, they could have just removed the CD. 30 Gauge is still pretty hefty, so that would be a natural limiter of at most 1 per minute (~1.3 if you count Dissipation used on CD), so it'd be the same as it is right now in practice. I find far more times I'd like a kick of AOE healing than I find I need focused slightly-better-Embrace.

I would complain in your example, though, as that would make it like SMN's "press AF then spam ED on CD", which is just dumb. (Well, optimal SMN uses them during 2 mins, but you get the point). If ED is the only spender, that's stupid. I much prefer AF to be for Lustrate/Indom/Excog/Soil. Just dump Energy Drain. Hell, even in Ty's survey, one of the most requested changes for SCH was "decouple Energy Drain from Aetherflow", not "make Energy Drain the only thing Aetherflow is useful for and make it fuel a second Aetherflow gauge that does the actual healing". I don't recall ANYone suggesting that, actually.

SCH's role is Healer. It's primary resource should be based on healing, not damage. You guys somehow have this exactly backwards, I think.

As I said in my suggestion thread on SCH changes, make ED work on Faerie Gauge. I find way more time I'm capped on gauge and need to spend it than times I find myself capped on AF since I routinely use it on Excog and Soil. Actual healing buttons. Let me burn gauge on ED - the gauge I'm ACTUALLY capped on all the time and need a spender for.

- I don't remember Blessing ever being 30. I remember it costing 10 though, which is why even then it felt very 'ehh?' with the cost, since you'd always have 10 spare.

- Think about the reason people said 'decouple ED from AF'. It's so that the conflict between 'heals' and 'damage' is broken. If AF is ONLY spent on ED, then that desire, that heals and damage no longer compete for the resource, is met. Again, we don't need 'spend AF' to be the generator for Fey Gauge, either, it could be generated from anything else. Embrace casts, DOT ticks, Broil casts, whatever SE feels is relevant. I'd make it Embrace casts just because it's a reliable, steady income of gauge, in the same way PLD is 'steady and predictable' because it's tied to autoattacks, but unlike PLD's autos, Embrace happens during downtime too.

- ASTs role is healer. 7 of it's 8 cards it can play are damage related. WAR/DRK/GNB are all tanks, their gauges are all based on 'do damage' (and no, 'but threat generation!' is not a valid reason in current year). I think that where WHM has 'healing turns into damage', having a class that is 'damage turns into healing' isn't that farfetched. Of course, I would prefer it be Sage as a more direct version (ie, dealing damage directly causes healing), but having 'deal damage generates resource to spend on healing' can work. Downtime might be a bit odd if ED were the only source though, hence the other suggestions like Embrace casts.

- Moving ED to fairy gauge instead of AF doesn't solve the issue. It just changes it from 'you don't want to use Soil, because you'd rather ED' to 'you use Soil whenever tf, likely in bad timings, because you need to spend the AF to get the gauge for ED', while also having 'you don't want to use Union, because you'd rather use ED'. Instead of making Union more incentivized, it'd kill it even further

Even White Mage's Lilies, while not being nearly enough to satisfy many of White Mage's critics on its own, was still a solid step forward for the job.

WHM's criticism comes because the SHB Lily fix came alongside a slew of changes that dumbed the class down, like removing Aero 3. If the changes in SHB had been 'Stone > Glare, Aero2 > Dia (potency up, not duration), Divine Seal > Temperance' and the Lily fixes, WHM would be regarded now as 'quite a banger of a job' I think

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I wouldn't call Aetherpact/Fey piss Union (and the entire fae gauge itself) to be 'useless', but it's certainly lackluster. Another button that uses fae gauge would be nice; my personal wish is to let them play more into the 'totem healing' aspect more such as that pulsing fey blessing, and other utility perhaps.

My favorite moment to use Union is when I need to hardcast raise somebody but doesn't want to leave the tank (or any low health party member) unchecked: Fey Union > switch target to hardraise. Protraction also snapshots Union ticks at the moment of cast, so it's very possible to leave whichever target with an on-going 0.91*330p regen/tick for as long as the gauge allows.

- I don't remember Blessing ever being 30. I remember it costing 10 though, which is why even then it felt very 'ehh?' with the cost, since you'd always have 10 spare.[...]

Blessing in ShB was a two minute cooldown costing 10p fae gauge. Even then, the cost was negligible too. And considering the opener involved at least burning 3 AFs for whatever, you are right about having always 10p to spare.

I remember when people were speculating what new buttons 6.0 would bring us, I was hoping that they would work on more into the gauge. Sadly that's not what the dev had envisioned lmao. :sadhorn:

[vetch]

- ASTs role is healer. 7 of it's 8 cards it can play are damage related. WAR/DRK/GNB are all tanks, their gauges are all based on 'do damage' (and no, 'but threat generation!' is not a valid reason in current year). I think that where WHM has 'healing turns into damage', having a class that is 'damage turns into healing' isn't that farfetched. Of course, I would prefer it be Sage as a more direct version (ie, dealing damage directly causes healing), but having 'deal damage generates resource to spend on healing' can work. Downtime might be a bit odd if ED were the only source though, hence the other suggestions like Embrace casts.

Having all of SCH's aetherflow be damage oGCDs would be boring. Having all of AST's cards be vanilla damage buffs is boring now. Choosing between healing and damage, judging the situation and guessing how few defensive aetherflow you can get away with, is one of the few things that makes SCH more fun than other healers, just as managing the RNG used to make AST more fun.

Taking choices away so people don't have to think, asking less and less of players, cutting holes in the jobs so bad players can't make wrong decisions in the first place, it is BORING. It's aiming at mediocrity. It's more of the same bad design philosophy that has been wrecking healers for five years. And bad players will still find ways to be bad. All you've done is amputate mid-level gameplay by taking away the soft-skills that mid-level players work to master.

[Supersnow845]

WHM only didn’t get a lot of criticism in ShB because the SB lily system was so bad that even removing it with no change would have been an improvement, it says a lot that the only positive change healers have gotten in the last 6 years was reworking a system that was so bad the meta thing to do was just hide the system and never interact with it