The Limitation Dilemma: Why Final Fantasy 14's Limited Job was a Mistake

[Renathras]

Hi Roe!

White Wind: give it a massive CD to balance it, and it gains use as an interesting optimization tool.

And what would that be?

If BLU was a Healer, then a 3 min CD (like Lilibell Macrocosmos) might make sense...except you're talking about a partywide Bene in that one case. And we're not talking about BLU being a Healer Job. At least, most people aren't. It couldn't work like White Wind does now. No other Healer spell works by giving people the HP the caster has as an AOE heal. That's mega overpowered if used when the BLU has high HP and mega underpowered when they do not. It has "interesting interactions" with other Healers in theory. In practice, if it's that powerful, it becomes meta. Recall how groups were tossing WHM for AST for P3S specifically because of how Macrocosmos let the party skip out on needing to Healer LB? Now dial that up to 11. The CD would have to be "once per fight", AND BLU be a Healer Job.

Imagine, for a moment, if we gave, say, Time Mage or RDM Macrocosmos. "0 Healer clears" would now be commonplace. In the example above, what's to stop the party from just dropping the WHM since they could have a PLD Clemency and RDM Vercure the BLU, then the BLU uses White Wind to top off the party, no Healers needed? Wouldn't this be VERY VERY BAD?

Mighty Guard: Very specific effect you chose,

I started to go with Magick Barrier, but Mighty Guard traditionally has been Wall (Protect + Shell, often + Haste), so all damage types would make more sense. The point stands, it wouldn't be some interesting ability, it'd be the same boring and bland ability that parties are already guaranteed one of anyway since the standard comp already has one Ranged. That's not "interesting on it's own merit", honestly. It's the opposite of that - boring.

Angel Whisper: SMN has res, RDM has res but can cheat the cast time. What's the difference between those and Angel Whisper? Oh right: AW has a 5min CD, making it LESS OP than it's counterparts.

It wouldn't. That's the problem. Turned into a "standard" ability, it would be Raise. It would lose its unique properties. Also, need I remind you that you (and everyone else in the Healer forum) complained endlessly over the 0 Healer TOP clear? This is the kind of thing that allows for 0 Healer TOP clears.

And yeh, kinda weird that they went so hard on it being a solo focused job, and then made it unable to learn the best spells by being solo. Or letting it go in solo-focused content like solo DD runs or Eureka or Bozja.

Agreed.

I'd say it's not a BLU as it is, but a minigame wearing a BLU skin. Would anyone like it if LOV was released, but had Beastmaster as a job tied to it?

Mechanics, lore, and execution, it's a BLU, not a minigame. Minigames would be things like Doman Majong or Triple Triad. The Job as it is is very much a BLU, both in how it functions and how it plays and via its lore; all the things that make a Job a Job. Not sure what LOV is, but I've seen people ever since BLU was released want Beastmaster added as a Limited Job like it with a Pokemon "gotta catch 'em all" thing for taming pets. So quite a few people actually do want that.

...me personally, I've never had any kind of love of BST, so I don't care and more power to them. I have, however, lone loved BLU, and I like this one. I just wish it could do a bit more, worked solo as billed, etc.

[MsMisato]

Isn't blue mage a normal job in 11 though?

and blue is totally played different as well. Shoot all jobs and gameplay from XI are vastly different to XIV.

[ForsakenRoe]

Hi Roe!

Skill rebuttals, feel free to ignore if you are not Ren

- WW CD, I was thinking 5min originally, but you prove the point for me. Life's Agonies was AST-preferred because they had a tool to deal with it, and WHM did not. If BLU could WW and solve the mechanic, with the help of WHM's Bene, then that means WHM can also do the mechanic (with help). It's still not ideal, because you're burning two moves to get the same effect as AST's one, and is comp reliant, but it's better than 'I feel like I am griefing if I go WHM here'. But yeh, if the CD was like, 5min, then the TOP example doesn't exactly hold much water, because it's three uses in the entire encounter. I get where you're coming from, but 'how often is the thing accessible' is a big part of what makes something OP, and Bloodwhetting/Clemency are far far more accessible than WW would be

White Wind: 2.5s cast, 240s recast
Restores HP to all allies in <range>. HP restored is equal to caster's current HP.
Additional Effect: When Unsynced or participating in the Masked Carnivale, recast is reduced to 2.5s

edit: oh, you could also reduce the range if needed to balance it. For example, I can reach across the arena to hit everyone for Caloric Theory despite being on an edge (my DC has settled on Rinon's hexagon strat it seems), because Rapture is 20y. But if White Wind is only 10y, or 6y, or whatever, then it cannot reach the whole way. You'd have to have the BLU middle to get it to work. And in that strat for the mechanic, you cannot guarantee the BLU is middle (the fire marked people go middle to start). Playing around that limitation, and finding either a strat that lets you abuse WW, or just deciding 'ok we cannot use the WW cheese here, lets move it to Pangenesis', is part of the fun of raiding

- Time to delete Magick Barrier then. Or, make MG be the Physical equivalent of MB. I'm not a fan of how ranged are 'necessary' by virtue of having Troub and a 1% party stat boost though, I'd rather they get actual good design, that justifies bringing one, not just 'well we need it or we are 1% weaker'. As such, I don't see Troub and such being good because they're locked to being PRanged only. Like if a melee got a Troub equivalent, I'd be like 'oh damn that's pretty interesting', not 'noo Troub was the ranged thing they can't do this'

- Raise/Verraise/Resurrection also have no unique properties. They all function the same, Verraise is different only because it's affected by a separate trait. AW's long ass CD is the one thing that makes it 'unique', and that can be kept for balance sake if its that big a deal, just... not five minutes, jesus. Also, if the raise CD is shorter (eg, 60s OGCD), doesn't the idea of 'BLU is the low PDPS, super supporty big RDPS job' actually justify it having a lower CD? If we're to believe that RDM's damage suffers all the time because 'but Verraise!!!!', surely it's fine for BLU, who would have even less personal damage (if I got my way), to have strong raise potential too? Remember, RDM can back-to-back multiple raises, this BLU would still only get one, because of the CD. And as for TOP... it was RDM's machinegun raising that saved them at the LB spam section, this wouldn't change that. They'd still need the RDM for that, maybe they'd swap the SMN to a BLU in this case but... yeh it'd be at most, the same result. I don't think it'd be 'zero heal runs would be commonplace'.

Let's say Island Sanctuary came out, but! BST was the job you used to progress through it, as a limited job. It's got a questline, it's got 'catch animals', etc, all the trappings (heh) of BST flavor and identity. But locking an iconic job, to a piece of content that is forgotten about after a couple patches, is not savvy business practice to me. At this point, I only go to Sanc to put in what the math wizard discord tells me to put in, to get the cowries, to stockpile for next expansion to get Crafting Materia for melding. I don't touch the place outside of that. Probably a lot of players like me, too. Next patch, 6.5, I expect the max rank to hit 20, and after that, I fully expect it to be just... complete. Left to gather dust, for people to participate in if they want, but it doesn't get more content added. Like Eureka, or Bozja, or Diadem. Which is probably why they did not lock BST to being the method used to progress Island Sanctuary. Because if they stick a Limited Job onto a piece of content, ie Carnivale, then that content has to keep getting updates. If the job goes stagnant (ie, if BLU got to a certain level cap and just never got updated again), then everyone, even BLU enjoyers of current year, would consider it to be a waste.

And, let's also consider, if they added BST as a LJ, then now they have to do BLU updates, AND BST updates, AND any other updates to LJs that they add later, along with all the usual stuff. The dev-hours strain limited jobs would add, would get out of control too fast, I think. We're already waiting 4 years to get the second half of a race they added for SHB, I don't think they can afford to add another Limited Job, just from a 'this takes time to develop for' perspective

I think SE has seen how divisive BLU was. Whether it's a success or failure in SE's eyes, or data, doesn't matter, I think. It could be a roaring success, from a data perspective, but that's not important, because SE is a company. A brand, with PR and optics to consider. And I think it's the optics, of 'this job can never play with everyone else at endgame', that means that the term Limited Job is now just a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths, and SE doesn't feel it's worth it to risk trying another one. The optics of it would be catastrophic. So BLU remains on lifesupport, getting VERY occasional updates, but behind the curtain, the idea of Limited Jobs is dead, not worth the backlash it'd cause. Ofc, they could announce BST or something at Fanfest to prove me wrong, but I'd bet money there'd be at least one person (with a red shirt possibly) asking if it's an April Fools joke. If I was at Fanfest (no ticket, thanks lottery) and I saw the reveal, it'd be me. Not in a red shirt, though, contrary to my character's name, I'm not that big into red. At the very least, there'd be booing from the audience at the reveal, and that'd be terrible for PR. I can see the Kotaku headlines already

Again, I don't see why anyone would want PUP locked to a LOV themed questline. Or BST locked to Island. Or BLU to be locked to the Carnivale. Have those as side content for those jobs if you want, like how Performance is technically side content of BRD, but don't lock me in Outland when everyone else is playing Northrend content. Don't lock me in the Source, when everyone's not only been to the First, but has also now come back and done more Source things, it just doesn't make sense from a business perspective, especially with, possibly, THE fanfavorite job of the series

[Nestama]

So while you get nothing for doing it solo, it is 100% possible to solo dungeons while level sync'd as a BLU. Was fun.

Also while Pom Cure is only 500 potency under Healer Mimicry, that's really all you need as a BLU to heal back to 90-100%.

[Eorzean_username]

"It's not overpowered because it, when synced, is worse than another job at level 90 when doing content unsync"

Oh, alright. This is fun.

In that case, let's imagine that BLU achievements/bribery can be completed without an all-BLU party.

BLU is so powerful, right? So even if you could get your BLU treats without an all-BLU party, you'd still use all BLUs anyway, right? Because they're so powerful?

Except no, actually, Healer and Tank Mimicry would probably go extinct overnight — because you're just kneecapping yourself using a BLU for those roles, since it's underpowered at doing tasks that aren't "burst things down with spell-stacking vomit", even vs. a synced normal Tank / Healer.

You do realize that 'synced' is the intended way to do content, the way its been designed to be done,

Ahh yes "respecting the content" or something?

Which is why PF is filled to the brim with "Synced" parties for farming old content, right?

"Synced" is the forced way to do content, in order to keep it relevant, and create some semblance of an actual game. As soon as the developers give you a switch to turn off scaling limitations, they just created another "intended" way to do content.

This is just semantic footsie.

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BLU is only "overpowered" in content where it's engineered to be, and the targets are deliberately made vulnerable to BLU's toolkit, and you voluntarily choose to Sync down for it because the game told you to and you have a compulsive need to complete checklists.

"White Mage can STUN entire PACKS of trash mobs?! Better cap it at level 70, otherwise it would be too OVERPOWERED in Savage raids!"

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I wasn't talking about whatever "uncapped BLU" hypotheticals you want to throw into the debate — I'm saying that people claiming they love BLU right now because "it's so overpowered!" seem to be living in a different plane of reality, and/or unable to find the "Unsync" setting on their Duty Finder.

and if BLU is Overpowered compared to normal jobs when synced to same level, then it's overpowered and that's the end of story?

Yeah you seem to have gotten snagged on this pretty hard, so sure, let's elaborate on the concept.

Besides pointless gimmicks like deleting a trash pack every 2 minutes (which would have ~zero effect on the wider game outside maybe Expert Roulette, assuming that the developers didn't just make max-level mobs Freeze-immune), the only thing that makes BLU even vaguely "overpowered" in synced content is that its Potencies are utterly and intentionally busted. And even that only really matters when it... lines up a bunch of fiddly moving parts and CDs to set up a proper... 2 minute... burst... oh, this sounds familiar, doesn't it?

BLU then spends the rest of its time drooling on its keyboard mashing Sonic Boom or Sharpened Knife or whatever generic filler you've chosen today, in-between just trying to desperately keep itself alive at all due to how underpowered its ability to handle a lot of mechanics and problems actually is.

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Like, are you getting this? BLU's ridiculous burst damage is the only thing that allows the ridiculously poor rest of its design to be propped-up, because it allows BLU to just sleepwalk through the periods of time in-between chunking huge portions of a target's HP bar. It's like the Primal God of the 2-Minute Meta.

What you're basically trying to say is: "If you give a Job busted potencies at Level 90, then that Job will be busted".

Great point, which supports exactly what I'm saying — because that's not a trait inherent to the concept of Blue Mage. "Blue Mage" is not overpowered — intentionally jacking a Job's burst potency sky-high just to give that Job an arbitrary niche/advantage, is "overpowered".

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Want Paladin to be "overpowered" like BLU when synced to level 60?

No problem, just crank its Potencies sky-high during its burst window, and then create a "Paladin Log" that requires a full party of Paladins, who will alternate casting Clemency on each other in-between bursting big chunks off the target.

Such unique excitement! Now Paladin could never be a level 90 Job, it's too powerful!

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What else makes BLU "overpowered" when Synced?

...Oh yes, things it can do to trash mobs, which are sometimes/often Immune, depending on the "overpowered" action in question.

"I'm incredibly overpowered because FATE bosses say, 'Immune', when I cast Tail Screw on them, and 50%+ of my toolkit is gimmicky padding that I literally never put on my bar, and ~40% of the rest is just bloated DPS burst actions like any other Job!"

"And sometimes the devs arbitrarily throw me a little kitty-treat by marking like 1 or 2 Dungeon bosses 'deathable' each level tier, so I get a little rush from it, while arbitrarily leaving the rest 'Immune' to remind me of my actual place".

Egads! Such design brilliance, such power! It's seeping into my pores like argyria!

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So basically "If you let BLU be level 90... think of what it would do to Expert Roulette!"

Gasp! No! Not Expert Roulette!

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"But like, think of if I could Diamondback through Harrowing Hell in exchange for doing zero DPS for 10 seconds so I'm basically KO'd anyway!"

Haha that's great, we're taking this Summoner and their Radiant Aegis instead of you though — good luck

And if it were a 'normal' job in current state, able to go all the way to level 90, it'd break everything.

Instead of just arbitrarily claiming this, I'm going to ask for some examples.

How? How would BLU "break everything" at level 90?

Can you provide some specific examples that you're imagining?

[ForsakenRoe]

Instead of just arbitrarily claiming this, I'm going to ask for some examples.

How? How would BLU "break everything" at level 90?

Can you provide some specific examples that you're imagining?

I'll provide an example of the opposite direction, I guess? If I look at a video like this O12S clear, I see them clear the fight right after the second Archive All. That's like, when we'd clear the fight with 390 gear on an actual comp, back when SB was current. In fact, because they kill it there, with 400 ilvl, they're 'slower' in some regards compared to 'real jobs', perhaps. Either way, to me, this video tells me that BLU, the 'super OP' job that would destroy current raids if it were able to go in there... is actually really quite balanced vs the 70 raids, DPS output wise?

So while you get nothing for doing it solo, it is 100% possible to solo dungeons while level sync'd as a BLU. Was fun.

Also while Pom Cure is only 500 potency under Healer Mimicry, that's really all you need as a BLU to heal back to 90-100%.

Fun it may be, but that 500 is actually 600, due to healer mimicry's +20%. And then that 600 is actually 1200, because you've got Basic Instinct applied. Clemency is 1000 and doesn't require you be solo, guess we should make PLD a limited job too



edit: just had a thought. Imagine we log in one day before 7.0 releases, maybe some time between 6.4 and 6.5, and everyone has a mail in their mailbox in game. It just says:

'Sorry I couldn't come tell you this in person. I think I've made a big discovery. I have to go back. I'll keep you apprised if I discover more. - M'

Playerbase trying to work out who M is, what they discovered, etc. Turns out it's a little teaser from the devs, that Martyn going back to the New World, as he's found a way to improve BLU capabilities etc. Just a fun little 'mess with the playerbase' thing to stir up hype, and then at fanfest do the big reveal. But the speculation would be pretty fun. Maybe make the letter be from 'A' (as in Azuro) to misdirect

[Rufalus]

You do realize you can save hotbar builds with your blue mage right? Really what they need is giving more set slots for those builds.

Also while I get your 2nd point. What's stopping you from forming the specific party on PF yourself? I do that all the time and usually I can get a like minded group going most of the time.

RE: hotbar sets, I know how it works. I was commenting on it not being the most elegant design. I don't think there are enough spell slots per set. You have to make a bunch of different sets for things that don't fit, covering different situations like tank, heal, dps, carnival, another carnival one. Your brain has to remember how you arranged things on each set, it's hard to muscle memory that. So you tell people give me a minute to check all this stuff. You can't switch role without somebody to copy. There are lots of almost duplicate function spells cluttering the spellbook. It's not super elegant.

RE: PF, I know I can use it.. How many 24 player BLU parties for alliance raids have I seen fill in the last year? Zero on my server. They usually reach about 4 people out of 24, not close to filling. It's easy to understand why, because only a small amount of people care about completing the Blu log and they aren't repeating for other people after they've got their one clear. So I called that fomo content, you do on release or you never do it. I'm prioritising blu on next patch before VC and Hildebrand.

[Zebraoracle]

hi ren

White Wind: give it a massive CD to balance it, and it gains use as an interesting optimization tool. if there's a HP-to-1 mechanic like Charybdis/WhiteHole/god forbid, Life's Agonies, now a potential solution is to Bene the BLU, then they White Wind with their now full HP bar. Also, BLU literally has 'medica but scuffed range (exuviation), 'medica but lower potency cos medica has that trait now' (strotram) and cure 2 (pom cure) (edit: sorry, just checked, 500p means it's actually Cure 1, hilarious) we're a bit past 'it's just X with a different animation'. Not to mention how many 'circle AOE for 220p' the class has

Mighty Guard: Very specific effect you chose, but the fact that a caster would have access to a Troub equivalent would be interesting on it's own merit, Magick Barrier's a thing so I can see it (hence why I did so in my post). Side note, a quick wiki check says that MG has affected the party, not a solo target, in pretty much every previous MG incarnation. The only 'it only affects 1 person' version I can think of, that I've played, is here, and FFTA. For 'I want something that defends specifically the BLU', we can have a Third Eye/Arcane Crest style shorter defensive, using stuff like Cold Fog or Chelonian Gate

Angel Whisper: SMN has res, RDM has res but can cheat the cast time. What's the difference between those and Angel Whisper? Oh right: AW has a 5min CD, making it LESS OP than it's counterparts. Weird. I'd personally make it a 60s CD with no cast time, to set it apart from other raise giving casters who can cast multiple raises. OGCD or GCD idk about, probably GCD for 'balance'. Maybe bump it to 120s CD

And yeh, kinda weird that they went so hard on it being a solo focused job, and then made it unable to learn the best spells by being solo. Or letting it go in solo-focused content like solo DD runs or Eureka or Bozja.

I'd say it's not a BLU as it is, but a minigame wearing a BLU skin. Would anyone like it if LOV was released, but had Beastmaster as a job tied to it?

Thank you for your posts. Our side is accused of not thinking when evidence supporting our arguments is pretty blatant...

Also regarding White Wind, I mentioned this earlier. You can keep the theme of the spell and adjust it for working in 14. A flat potency that increases as the caster's hp increases. It has not been "heal equal to the caster's health" in every game, and acting like it and other spells have to strictly adhere to some specific version of them makes zero sense to me when we have other stuff that isn't 100% accurate to historical appearances.

[TheDecay]

Why do people keep laboring under the illusion that if BLU or jobs as complex as BLU aren't limited and are endgame-ready, the devs will not prune or balance its skills so that it's not overpowered...?

SE has us fighting like dogs over scraps. Some people fight for balance, some people fight for fun jobs. You do realize that we can have both if they just put more resources into this game?

[Zebraoracle]

Why do people keep laboring under the illusion that if BLU or jobs as complex as BLU aren't limited and are endgame-ready, the devs will not prune or balance its skills so that it's not overpowered...?

SE has us fighting like dogs over scraps. Some people fight for balance, some people fight for fun jobs. You do realize that we can have both if they just put more resources into this game?

I'm gonna go with Stockholme Syndrome.