Can 7.0 focus on a storyline without the philosophizing

[Theodric]

You can have a good philosophical message without being preachy about it. That's why people are generally alright with a lot of the FF titles that are philosophical in nature.

Yeah, I think a lot of people rightfully roll their eyes when a game gets too preachy and refuses to let the player come to their own conclusions. Particularly when it comes to deeper and more controversial subjects.

I've said it many times before but MMO's in particular attract players from all over the world from many different countries, cultures, personality types, social classes and belief systems.

As such, I think that the core cast should reflect that. I'm Scottish, I've made friends from many different parts of the world during my time playing MMO's. We don't always agree on everything and it's outright bizarre that the writers of this game insist on pushing mutual agreement amongst the core cast at pretty much every turn. That isn't how real, relatable individuals operate.

With a varied cast there's a greater chance that individual players will find a particular character or two that they find agreeable. With a cast that echo one another at almost every turn and eventually 'evolve' to have only surface level differences between them then that is less likely to happen.

[TaleraRistain]

As such, I think that the core cast should reflect that. I'm Scottish, I've made friends from many different parts of the world during my time playing MMO's. We don't always agree on everything and it's outright bizarre that the writers of this game insist on pushing mutual agreement amongst the core cast at pretty much every turn. That isn't how real, relatable individuals operate.

I had forgotten this but I just went through story on an alt and there was a point where Alphinaud went and asked Riol and Alianne why they stayed with the Scions after the Crystal Braves disbanded. And the simple answer they gave was that they recognized that the Scions were all united in a common cause.

Also, when you watch the core group we interact with, there's an unspoken agreement to be open to input and allow people to speak. They debate different perspectives or paths to take and each gives their viewpoint in a non-judgmental atmosphere. You're not going to see a lot of direct conflict in that sort of environment and it's not unrealistic because that's how effective teams work in the real world.

[Theodric]

I had forgotten this but I just went through story on an alt and there was a point where Alphinaud went and asked Riol and Alianne why they stayed with the Scions after the Crystal Braves disbanded. And the simple answer they gave was that they recognized that the Scions were all united in a common cause.

Also, when you watch the core group we interact with, there's an unspoken agreement to be open to input and allow people to speak. They debate different perspectives or paths to take and each gives their viewpoint in a non-judgmental atmosphere. You're not going to see a lot of direct conflict in that sort of environment and it's not unrealistic because that's how effective teams work in the real world.

They dress it up very nicely but there's rarely any serious attempt to truly see where the 'other side' are coming from. More often than not the story will treat anyone with different viewpoints or opinions as in the wrong or in need of being humbled or humiliated - often with some silly strawman being conjured up in the process. Even in cases where the vote goes the 'wrong way' initially, the Scions will insist on doubling down and trying to force through the 'correct' result. Either through actual force or deception.

As for 'effective teams'. I'd argue otherwise. I'd say that a group of individuals from different backgrounds and belief systems would genuinely be more capable of understanding where different people are coming from as opposed to those who push out anyone the moment there's even the slightest meaningful difference.

Let's also not forget that it wasn't until recently that the typical stance embraced by society at large could be summed up as 'live and let live'. Ultimately I don't think the game does a good job at accounting for different tastes, personal beliefs, cultural differences and personality differences amongst the playerbase.

[AwesomeJr44]

More often than not the story will treat anyone with different viewpoints or opinions as in the wrong or in need of being humbled or humiliated - often with some silly strawman being conjured up in the process.

This right here is a major issue I have with the game's storytelling in recent years. There are genuinely interesting places in this game's universe with interesting people with interesting points of view that differ from the scions' in major ways. But the story always treats us as the 'correct' point of view, and if someone disagrees with us, they're typically portrayed as the bad guy and/or outright wrong, arrogant, stupid, etc for thinking the way they do.

[Vyrerus]

They debate

Nah. Not the Scions. I can't even remember the last time the Scions had a minor disagreement, let alone a debate. Plenty of disagreements and debates with world leaders, not so much from within.

Heck, the only thing that comes to mind is when Alphinaud is at first trying to get someone to roger up to be the new antecedent, but everyone settles on doing their "own" thing, which just winds up going right back to working together as a whole group anyway.

Also I'd say that effective teams in the real world have leadership who make executive decisions for them, with each tendril of the team often not agreeing wholesale with said leadership's moves, and often having to disregard or ignore certain commands or mandates for practical considerations the leader doesn't often deal with directly. The Scions are less a team of people, and more a pseudo hivemind of mouthpieces. They want for not knowing what to do. Like, any situation that comes along that, "stumps" them is either something that results in an outcome immediately that they didn't get to exercise control over, or it's the next major plot point, and they just have to wait for the WoL to present the keyword or solution that gives them their, "eureka" moment, leaving me to wonder how they ever actually get stumped when they have all the answers.

[Eorzean_username]

Heck, the only thing that comes to mind is when Alphinaud is at first trying to get someone to roger up to be the new antecedent, but everyone settles on doing their "own" thing, which just winds up going right back to working together as a whole group anyway.

For about 4.5 seconds we had hints of actual tension between Thancred and Y'shtola over his delusional hopes of turning Ryne into Minfilia 2 in order to "undo" his own guilt about past events at the cost of someone else's childhood/life.

However, this was waved-away almost instantly, and then we went off to run around a temple with rabbit amazons (which was awesome, don't get me wrong).

Then it got briefly lampshaded when Y'shtola outright says, "Yeah, I'm not going with you to Amh Araeng, because I'll probably say something mean to Thancred along the way. Good luck out there."

And then it just resolved itself, through Thancred's own self-realisations while looking for rocks, and the fact that the plot diverted him off into a fakeout death while the actual moment that he'd been building towards for 20 years solved itself without his presence — obviating the need for anyone to actually confront him.

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And then... I guess everyone was deemed "solved" and "fixed", because I think everyone in the MSQ-crew pretty much became a homogeneous mass after that plot point was done.

Unless you count Alisae sometimes being "bored" by serious adult discussions, Alphinaud saying something HiLaRiOuSLy tactless, Urianger's emotional vulnerabilities being exploited again (and him being shamed for it), or G'raha trying to figure out how to friend you on Instagram... as "tension / conflict".

[TheDecay]

Unless you count Alisae sometimes being "bored" by serious adult discussions, Alphinaud saying something HiLaRiOuSLy tactless, Urianger's emotional vulnerabilities being exploited again (and him being shamed for it), or G'raha trying to figure out how to friend you on Instagram... as "tension / conflict".

It is "tension / conflict" if this is a slice of life anime.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what the story feels like now: slice of life anime wrapped in god-killing antics.

[Vyrerus]

For about 4.5 seconds we had hints of actual tension between Thancred and Y'shtola over his delusional hopes of turning Ryne into Minfilia 2 in order to "undo" his own guilt about past events at the cost of someone else's childhood/life.

However, this was waved-away almost instantly, and then we went off to run around a temple with rabbit amazons (which was awesome, don't get me wrong).

Then it got briefly lampshaded when Y'shtola outright says, "Yeah, I'm not going with you to Amh Araeng, because I'll probably say something mean to Thancred along the way. Good luck out there."

And then it just resolved itself, through Thancred's own self-realisations while looking for rocks, and the fact that the plot diverted him off into a fakeout death while the actual moment that he'd been building towards for 20 years solved itself without his presence — obviating the need for anyone to actually confront him.

————————————

And then... I guess everyone was deemed "solved" and "fixed", because I think everyone in the MSQ-crew pretty much became a homogeneous mass after that plot point was done.

Unless you count Alisae sometimes being "bored" by serious adult discussions, Alphinaud saying something HiLaRiOuSLy tactless, Urianger's emotional vulnerabilities being exploited again (and him being shamed for it), or G'raha trying to figure out how to friend you on Instagram... as "tension / conflict".

I love you

[TheMightyMollusk]

And then it just resolved itself, through Thancred's own self-realisations while looking for rocks,

While also dealing with a guy who lost himself to depression and alcoholism over the inability to save his loved ones, showing a mirror of Thancred's own issues and how badly he could turn out if he keeps going down his path. But "looking for rocks" is easier, I guess.

[Eorzean_username]

While also dealing with a guy who lost himself to depression and alcoholism over the inability to save his loved ones, showing a mirror of Thancred's own issues and how badly he could turn out if he keeps going down his path. But "looking for rocks" is easier, I guess.

???

You just reinforced the point behind that discussion.

First, it's a weak parallel, at best. The real tension had been Thancred manically trying to inflict his own desperate, wishful hopes onto another thinking, feeling person who just "looked right" — not what might hypothetically become of Thancred himself because of his depression over failing Minfilia 1.0 ~20 years earlier.

In fact, Thancred had already become a profligate, aimless, depressed alcoholic following the incident in 1562 6AE — so if anything, he was basically just pompously-lecturing someone who was struggling with issues that Thancred had already overcome and moved on from.

His big "dialogue climax" in that scene is to once again reinforce that he "refuses to let [Minfilia's] legacy die" — which, depending on how you interpret his body-language, is either the opposite of letting go, or indicates that he's already made his decision (without requiring outside intervention)... ie, that he's not receiving some kind of "wake up call" from the sad dude at the graveyard, he's just lecturing the guy.

If Magnus had adopted some Drahn child, and was obsessively trying to make that child dress and behave like Magnus's own dead son, and got called-out for it by Thancred, then we'd have a much more interesting scene going on.

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Second, rather than Thancred himself being confronted or conflicted with, Thancred was granted Main Character Privilege to step outside the "stage" and look down upon — yet another — engineered placeholder NPC, who was swapped into existence for the sole purpose of taking abuse or confrontation, or have problems, that main characters are not allowed to be subjected to.

ie: We couldn't have someone directly lecture Thancred about where he might "end up" (despite that kind of concern being irrelevant to the story by that point anyway, since Thancred had already "gotten better" off-screen during the 3 years before we arrived in Norvrandt), or get into an argument with him about anything else, on-screen.

Instead, we could only create this disposable proxy-NPC and let Scion(s) lecture the proxy, expressing opinions in a safe way towards someone that's not important.

Sometimes, this may result in a Scion having a 5-second-long "quiet thinking" scene, before the camera pans up into the sky towards a random cloud — after which the Scion might dramatically overcome their self-doubts about something, through the power of admonishing other people.

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So once again, a Scion was positioned as the savior voice of reason, lecturing someone else — who, the plot indicates, just needed a good pep talk these past X years of their personal suffering, flaws, prejudices, etc.

And what happened?

Well, we briefly enjoyed the satisfaction of watching the Scions's usual "let me fix you" attitude fall completely flat, when Magnus basically told Thancred to eff-off. I think that was a solid idea and a good writing decision.

...However, FFXIV could only hold its breath for so long.

And so, 1 hour later, our resident grief-stricken alcoholic spontaneously-combusted into a go-getter leader who's suddenly totally inspired by his wife's legacy, totally "over" his dead child, and now full of vim and vigor for TROLLEYS because we have, once again, shown up and solved everyone's flaws through the power of lecturing them and collecting+delivering a sparkling object.