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  1. #201
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    TheDecay's Avatar
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    Gabon Decay
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eorzean_username View Post
    Ishikawa's been hands-off the direct writing since 6.10, having been promoted up to a creative lead ("Senior Story Designer") — so the same person who outlined the events of Endwalker, 6.10-6.40, and the 6.x Side Series will still be doing it. Some of the people in the trenches putting the script together have just been shuffled around.

    The team "writing" the game is actually pretty "corporatised" and distributed, so the "Designers" at the top have the most influence over "what happens" and "why" — that will still be Ishikawa and Oda, moving forward.

    ie, If you're not feeling the Lore/Story of things like Myths of the Realm, Palace of the "Hey everyone, just want to remind you... again... that Hermes and Amon and the Crystal Tower and Allag and Ishikawa's other pet obsessions exist!", the Void Friendship + Eating Food Saga, etc...

    ...then you're probably not going to see a very dramatic change in Meracydia (which is probably the destination because WOW always tries to copy its competitors preemptively, and WOW is currently on a remote island ruled by Dragons).

    This presentation from a Live Letter gives a lot of insight into how the game is actually "written":
    https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/473934-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-LXXIII-%2810-31-2022%29?p=6118859&viewfull=1#post6118859
    The "what happens" and "why" really aren't that big of a problem. Hermes being Amon is a cool concept in my humble opinion.

    It's the writing that's the problem, and we really don't quite need more "the power of friendship" or inane fanservice/anime-style "slice of life" moments in the writing.

    These concepts themselves are not the problem. Slice of life is actually important to a story, for example by demonstrating how Thavnairians are recovering from the Final Days. Slice of life such as having Zero looking at Estinien's abs is not.
    (12)
    Dealing with bad-faith forum posters who tell you to quit or say your concern is in the minority:
    1. Do not engage in their bad-faith attacks.
    2. Warn others of their bad-faith if they have a long history of it.
    3. Continue the productive conversation and silently report them for personal attacks.
    Be firm but polite, recognize their tactics and don't fall into their traps.

  2. #202
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    IkaraGreydancer's Avatar
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    Ikara Graydancer
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    Midgardsormr
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDecay View Post
    The "what happens" and "why" really aren't that big of a problem. Hermes being Amon is a cool concept in my humble opinion.

    It's the writing that's the problem, and we really don't quite need more "the power of friendship" or inane fanservice/anime-style "slice of life" moments in the writing.

    These concepts themselves are not the problem. Slice of life is actually important to a story, for example by demonstrating how Thavnairians are recovering from the Final Days. Slice of life such as having Zero looking at Estinien's abs is not.
    Sure there should be a balance there in terms of how SoL is handled but is 10 secs of ab staring really a point to make about it being used badly? It was there then it wasn't in a blink. Not every single scene in a game needs to to be important to the overarching story. Sometimes characters just have fun. FF games have always been this way.

    Power of friendship didn't beat, Ultima Weapon, Niddhogg, Emet or Zenos. That theme was only heavy against Endsinger and that made sense. Now do we need that again going forward? No. Odds are it won't happen for awhile to that degree. Saying we don't need fanseevice in xiv is also odd, because XIV is literally fanservice incarnate. It's an integral part of the game for better or worse. XIV has never been some super dark edgy game that's super serious all the time. Many claim ARR and HW were but replying these will show you that's not the case. The cast was just smaller.
    (2)
    Last edited by IkaraGreydancer; 07-11-2023 at 03:06 AM.

  3. #203
    Player
    Deo14's Avatar
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    Thea Shinri
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    Quote Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer View Post
    Sure there should be a balance there in terms of how SoL is handled but is 10 secs of ab staring really a point to make about it being used badly? It was there then it wasn't in a blink. Not every single scene in a game needs to to be important to the overarching story. Sometimes characters just have fun. FF games have always been this way.
    If the rest of the story wasn't lacking, it would be fine. But what happened in patch really? We went on a 357th mission to get some aether, now with a dash of penguin genocide. Then we rode a dragon to another shard, just to fight Golbez, where we won, but actually didn't. End of a patch.

    SoL is fine, but not when it's clear that it's there only as a filler. This is not a slice of life anime, this is supposed to be fantasy story, adding this kind of stuff should be done with low priority, you need to have decent story first. It really just comes of as an attempt to distract players from poor story.
    (14)

  4. #204
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    IkaraGreydancer's Avatar
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    Ikara Graydancer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deo14 View Post
    If the rest of the story wasn't lacking, it would be fine. But what happened in patch really? We went on a 357th mission to get some aether, now with a dash of penguin genocide. Then we rode a dragon to another shard, just to fight Golbez, where we won, but actually didn't. End of a patch.

    SoL is fine, but not when it's clear that it's there only as a filler. This is not a slice of life anime, this is supposed to be fantasy story, adding this kind of stuff should be done with low priority, you need to have decent story first. It really just comes of as an attempt to distract players from poor story.
    Is that really all that happened? I guess we gloss over more of Golbez' and Zeros back story. The alliance Garl now has that will allow them to rebuild their nation without compromising themselves. The creation of Zeromus? Like you can't purposely leave very key story beats out to make a point, that doesn't breed a fair discussion especially with the point you're making.

    How can one of the shortest scenes in the patch be filler? And even if it was that little segment lasted no time so why is that even a point? Last I checked Fantasy can incorporate anything, slice of life included. You say it should be done with low priority but it was factually the shortest part of the patch...if you honestly think this scene is there to "cover up" a poor story that makes little sense. If that were the case wouldn't it be far longer? "Hey guys we have a 3 hour story segment we'd like you guys to play but we're gonna stick a 30 second scene in to cover up how bad the other 2 hours and 59 minutes are". Come on now...

    And the story being good, bad, decent etc is purely just opinion.
    (2)

  5. #205
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    TheDecay's Avatar
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    Gabon Decay
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    Marilith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deo14 View Post
    If the rest of the story wasn't lacking, it would be fine. But what happened in patch really? We went on a 357th mission to get some aether, now with a dash of penguin genocide. Then we rode a dragon to another shard, just to fight Golbez, where we won, but actually didn't. End of a patch.

    SoL is fine, but not when it's clear that it's there only as a filler. This is not a slice of life anime, this is supposed to be fantasy story, adding this kind of stuff should be done with low priority, you need to have decent story first. It really just comes of as an attempt to distract players from poor story.
    And when they do try to write a decent story, they quickly undercut their own efforts by wrapping up any semblance of conflict with "the power of being nice" and "the power of friendship" in a single minute after the person in question talks about their life story to us unprompted while we stare and do the WoL nod. And then they miraculously change their worldview to suit ours - no buildup or anything. The story has become profoundly unserious and baby-ish. It's like reading a child's picture book.

    As a result, the Garlemald senator storyline, which took nearly half an hour, was as unserious and childish as filler like Zero looking at Estinien's abs. The latter is a symptom of how disrespectful the writers are towards the playerbase, and the former really shows how the story has been warped to resemble a Wattpad fanfic. I suspect they worry that if they allowed the Garlemald senators to continue opposing us, half the playerbase will be upset and get depressed like a child who can't handle someone disagreeing with them, even in fiction. That, or they don't want to bother coming up with intricate plot threads anymore.
    (14)
    Last edited by TheDecay; 07-11-2023 at 04:24 AM.
    Dealing with bad-faith forum posters who tell you to quit or say your concern is in the minority:
    1. Do not engage in their bad-faith attacks.
    2. Warn others of their bad-faith if they have a long history of it.
    3. Continue the productive conversation and silently report them for personal attacks.
    Be firm but polite, recognize their tactics and don't fall into their traps.

  6. #206
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    Eorzean_username's Avatar
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    Azephia Dawn
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDecay View Post
    The "what happens" and "why" really aren't that big of a problem.
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

    I personally think that deciding to explain 10 years worth of plot and mysteries with another pet character that you seed 5 hours before the final encounter, and then for dessert shove another of your overused pet-characters down everyone's throat one last time until they gag, and try to play this as some sort of poignant and satisfying conclusion to everything built up to since 1.00, is questionable "Story Designing" at best.

    —————————————

    I think that Ishikawa/Oda come up with entertaining spectacle, but they lack discipline and depth — preferring quick in-and-out fast-food stories that are developed and executed largely inside their own bubbles.

    They write like rotating writers on an episodic TV series — make cursory acknowledgement of the shared world, but only as far as necessary to keep it recognisable as being set in the franchise setting.

    Which would just be a style, in and of itself, but I think it's inappropriate for a persistent world that could be layering and building upon its preexisting foundations, rather than constantly, impulsively introducing new elements out of nowhere while still leaving vast amounts of preexisting elements ignored or neglected — or stomped-out and destroyed, for the sake of both impatience and design convenience.

    —————————————

    Maehiro's slow, serious, stubbornly-interconnected ARR/HW style was doomed to never be mainstream-popular, but I think it did a much better job of trying to tell stories within the world, rather than trying to paste stories on top of the world.

    I feel like Ishikawa really does not want to tell stories about the FFXIV world; she wants to tell stories about Ishikawa's FF Nostalgia Theme Park and Weird Obsessions, and only works with the FFXIV Lore that existed before her to the extent that she's forced to by contractual obligation.

    So yeah, I'm not surprised that people are entertained by it — Ishikawa's really good at setting up entertaining self-contained stories that hit all the checkboxes on anime tropes. Her plots are popular for a reason — she captures that "classic FF game" quality pretty skillfully, if you weed-out all the tedious Scion filler (imagine talking to Hydaelyn without the Y'shtola hair-flip cringing up the scene).

    I'm just not impressed by how Ishikawa blithely rips up and astroturfs the preexisting Lore and settings whenever she feels like it, rather than building into them carefully and organically, as Sato and Maehiro tried to.

    —————————————

    To be clear, given FFXIV's goals as a product, Ishikawa and Oda are an excellent fit — they know how to target and entertain a mainstream audience, and they know how to insert enough splashy colourful fantastical stuff, "LOL!!" / "So CUTE!!!" moments, and intravenous freebase fanservice, to prevent the mythical Average Person™ from getting bored and complaining that "We're still talking to people in Ul'dah", "We're still talking about refugees", "We're still negotiating Ishgardian politics", "Nooooo you can't kill Nanamo, she's too cute!!!", etc.

    It's the storytelling equivalent of eating an entire birthday cake for dinner, instead of an actual balanced meal — much more immediately-fun, a lot more immediately-gratifying to the palate, kind of underwhelming in retrospect... but that's okay, because there's another cake over here, so you can just keep swallowing cake forever, since plotlines can't give you diabetes.
    (6)

  7. #207
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    IkaraGreydancer's Avatar
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    Ikara Graydancer
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDecay View Post
    And when they do try to write a decent story, they quickly undercut their own efforts by wrapping up any semblance of conflict with "the power of being nice" and "the power of friendship" in a single minute after the person in question talks about their life story to us unprompted while we stare and do the WoL nod. And then they miraculously change their worldview to suit ours - no buildup or anything. The story has become profoundly unserious and baby-ish. It's like reading a child's picture book.

    As a result, the Garlemald senator storyline, which took nearly half an hour, was as unserious and childish as filler like Zero looking at Estinien's abs. The latter is a symptom of how disrespectful the writers are towards the playerbase, and the former really shows how the story has been warped to resemble a Wattpad fanfic. I suspect they worry that if they allowed the Garlemald senators to continue opposing us, half the playerbase will be upset and get depressed like a child who can't handle someone disagreeing with them, even in fiction. That, or they don't want to bother coming up with intricate plot threads anymore.
    If the senators continued opposing us it'd just drag dude. They aren't in a position to be tight asses. And to lay it out like they just "miraculously changed their world view" with 0 build up is false. Did you miss the whole of EW? Prior expansions? They're only on these terms now because an alliance came with it that will help them rebuild. But again, you guys keep dismissing key story points to make a point...either you're not paying attention n so you're missing alot or your purposely framing the story to make it look worse. The people being afraid of activating the Tower again didn't spell "childish and unserious". Nor does the plight of Golbez, Zero, the 13th or Vrtra.

    And then ofc classic shots at the playerbase but has the nerve to call your opinion "humble". We can't have discussions in good merits if you're gonna misrepresent the game and take shots at folks.
    (1)

  8. #208
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    Deo14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer View Post
    Is that really all that happened? I guess we gloss over more of Golbez' and Zeros back story. The alliance Garl now has that will allow them to rebuild their nation without compromising themselves. The creation of Zeromus? Like you can't purposely leave very key story beats out to make a point, that doesn't breed a fair discussion especially with the point you're making.

    How can one of the shortest scenes in the patch be filler? And even if it was that little segment lasted no time so why is that even a point? Last I checked Fantasy can incorporate anything, slice of life included. You say it should be done with low priority but it was factually the shortest part of the patch...if you honestly think this scene is there to "cover up" a poor story that makes little sense. If that were the case wouldn't it be far longer? "Hey guys we have a 3 hour story segment we'd like you guys to play but we're gonna stick a 30 second scene in to cover up how bad the other 2 hours and 59 minutes are". Come on now...

    And the story being good, bad, decent etc is purely just opinion.
    After reading Decay's/Gauis' reply, I realized that I completely forgot that we also did some stuff in Garlemald. That's on me, I start to fall asleep whenever anything related to Garlemald and/or politics comes in a story. Creation of Zeromus? Cool I guess, no clue who that is, supposedly someone that players who played 30 years old game are hyped about. Sorry I left key story beats, but I unironically forgot we did some stuff in Garlemald, and I don't even know who this Zeromus is, from my POV, it's just another potential boss.

    Just because something is short, doesn't mean that it cannot be filler. We already had that Radz-at-Han restaurant scene (filler #1), which certainly wasn't just 10 seconds, Estinien scene (filler #2), everything surrounding Aetherfont (filler #3), which took 30+ minutes, where only relevant info was that letter foreshadowing, then it was some Garlemald stuff, which I don't want to rate, because I understand some people don't mind or even like it. After all of that, we finally got to the Golbez stuff, where we got blue balled.

    I certainly don't claim they intentionally made that Estinien scene to cover up poor story, but it certainly worked like that - all the Estinien fangirls/fanboys were hyped about that scene specifically, which made it feel like some cheap fanservice.

    For me personally, whole patch felt like 3/4 filler, and rest was very mid. Up to a point where I started to believe that whole storyline was originally meant as EW's trial storyline
    (12)

  9. #209
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    OdinelStarrei's Avatar
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    Odinel Starrei
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    Exodus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deo14 View Post
    After reading Decay's/Gauis' reply, I realized that I completely forgot that we also did some stuff in Garlemald. That's on me, I start to fall asleep whenever anything related to Garlemald and/or politics comes in a story. Creation of Zeromus? Cool I guess, no clue who that is, supposedly someone that players who played 30 years old game are hyped about. Sorry I left key story beats, but I unironically forgot we did some stuff in Garlemald, and I don't even know who this Zeromus is, from my POV, it's just another potential boss.

    Just because something is short, doesn't mean that it cannot be filler. We already had that Radz-at-Han restaurant scene (filler #1), which certainly wasn't just 10 seconds, Estinien scene (filler #2), everything surrounding Aetherfont (filler #3), which took 30+ minutes, where only relevant info was that letter foreshadowing, then it was some Garlemald stuff, which I don't want to rate, because I understand some people don't mind or even like it. After all of that, we finally got to the Golbez stuff, where we got blue balled.

    I certainly don't claim they intentionally made that Estinien scene to cover up poor story, but it certainly worked like that - all the Estinien fangirls/fanboys were hyped about that scene specifically, which made it feel like some cheap fanservice.

    For me personally, whole patch felt like 3/4 filler, and rest was very mid. Up to a point where I started to believe that whole storyline was originally meant as EW's trial storyline
    What's the deal with Zeromus and the 13th's moon? Theoretically, considering the environs it is summoned in, I sorta understand why it's a threat, but the entire backing of Zeromus and I suppose this 6.X series has given me quite a bit of pause. I've already pretty much written off the Source as having any kind of engaging storylines for the duration of post-expansion considering nothing I'm interested in is being approached except for the Void (and it's associated history/lore) and other shards. But based on what I've pulled from the encyclopedia's, there's nothing that even references something or someone like Zeromus (either in it's "hero of eld" or the potential "god voidsent" that he currently is". Probably unrankable in the pantheon outside "the new biggest strongest threat". The only thing I could have gotten from echo flashbacks this patch is potentially Original Golbez being the 13th's shard of Azem, but that's...not confirmed, or even possible to, I think, since we can't actually talk to old or new Golbez. Actually, side note, what's the deal with Voidwalker in Eden? I'd sure like to be able to tell Golbez that we have experience in this sort of thing and while the crimes of imprisoning Azdaja are hard to overlook, we have agents on the First also trying to "break the wheel" so to speak. That single void questline there was more interesting to me than almost three patches of whatever this is. I'm not exactly sure why I can't get on board with the Void as I could the First, since the Void has been around for way longer, and is more linked to many main plot events and characters who I actually like sans Zero, but it somehow feels like it's not getting the depth it deserves? Or it's not going in the direction I wanted (less character building, more world building).

    Where is the Watcher? Where are those stupid rabbits, and pretty much all of the infrastructure that was required for the Moonship? Did Golbez kill all of them and destroy everything up there? Was the savior ship only meant for people on the Source and the shards were just, totally abandoned if Meteion showed up?

    Is this another example of how the Eight Umbral Calamity timeline is like, super screwed now, since no one knows about anything Golbez is doing, and no matter what Midgardsomr does in that permutation of the plot, it can't functionally matter?

    EDIT: How did Golbez even get to the moon or know anything was up there? I guess Azdaja could've been "forced" to fly up there, but...why?
    (6)
    Last edited by OdinelStarrei; 07-11-2023 at 06:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CelestaRosa View Post
    this is my opinion. don't have share my opinion. don't have like my opinion. but know nothing you say or do is gonna make me change my opinion. if don't like that tough.

  10. #210
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    IkaraGreydancer's Avatar
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    Ikara Graydancer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deo14 View Post
    After reading Decay's/Gauis' reply, I realized that I completely forgot that we also did some stuff in Garlemald. That's on me, I start to fall asleep whenever anything related to Garlemald and/or politics comes in a story. Creation of Zeromus? Cool I guess, no clue who that is, supposedly someone that players who played 30 years old game are hyped about. Sorry I left key story beats, but I unironically forgot we did some stuff in Garlemald, and I don't even know who this Zeromus is, from my POV, it's just another potential boss.

    Just because something is short, doesn't mean that it cannot be filler. We already had that Radz-at-Han restaurant scene (filler #1), which certainly wasn't just 10 seconds, Estinien scene (filler #2), everything surrounding Aetherfont (filler #3), which took 30+ minutes, where only relevant info was that letter foreshadowing, then it was some Garlemald stuff, which I don't want to rate, because I understand some people don't mind or even like it. After all of that, we finally got to the Golbez stuff, where we got blue balled.

    I certainly don't claim they intentionally made that Estinien scene to cover up poor story, but it certainly worked like that - all the Estinien fangirls/fanboys were hyped about that scene specifically, which made it feel like some cheap fanservice.

    For me personally, whole patch felt like 3/4 filler, and rest was very mid. Up to a point where I started to believe that whole storyline was originally meant as EW's trial storyline
    I see. I had a feeling that was the case for some of it. I know I've tuned for stuff like the Telos segment of ShB. Be like that sometimes. I can't say I'm to versed in ff4 so Zeromus isn't super hype to me. The interesting part to me is that it seems we need the Firsts help to beat it.

    Idk If I can call the Aetherfront stuff filler but pure opinion there. As for the others I can see the reasoning there. Golbez I knew we weren't going to just beat and be done, we don't even know who he is so that was a given to me.

    Idk If I can also call some cheap fanservice simply because alot liked it. It's just fanserive that the game gives to many people in different ways. No one (that I know) base their enjoyment of this patch off that scene. Was just an added bonus to them that helped lighten Zero up as a character.

    I can't say much about how you feel. I don't think the post story is as good as say...ShB one but I do enjoy it and would call it good. I'm enjoying the break after the craziness that was 6.0. It's clear to me at least this wasn't going to be a trial storyline considering how much it ties into the overall world plot unlike say the ShB one or Four Lords.
    (0)

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