Can 7.0 focus on a storyline without the philosophizing

[Deo14]

But are they passionate about playing the game, or passionate about hating on it?

Someone passionate about playing the game is going to have both positives and negatives they share about it. No game is perfect. There are always things that can be improved but the player is also going to want to share what they enjoy or at the least does not see as a problem with the game. If they feel there are no positives or those positives are greatly overshadowed by the negatives, there's no reason to stay passionate about playing it.

When all someone posts is negative comments with nothing positive to say, it natural to doubt that they're actually passionate about playing the game. From there, it's a small step to assume they're only interested in hating on it (an assumption that may or may not be true).

While I have my issues with the individual who started this thread, I can agree that the game does tend to overdo certain themes mostly in the smaller subplots. But that player also has had nothing positive to say about the game and likes to attack posters who do say positive things. So are they here because they're passionate about playing the game, or are they here because they're passionate about hating on the game?

Do we need some to follow some regulations of minimal positive things we say, just so we feel like we're legitimate? I'm talking just for myself - I very rarely talk here about things I like. You can check all my 300+ posts, I bet there is not a single praise about this game's music, even though that's one of my most favorite things about the game. I have something positive to say, but I usually won't say it, I don't see a reason. You yourself described it as "at the least does not see as a problem with the game" - why would I start talking about something that I don't see as problem? What would I achieve by that? Would it spark some interesting discussion? Very unlikely. This is why I don't just throw random praises into the void, I don't see a reason. It doesn't mean I passionately hate the game as some seem to think, it's just different mindset and different personality traits.

[IkaraGreydancer]

It's really quite fascinating to see how certain posters repeatedly ignore the fact that those they deem to be 'negative' have repeatedly outlined the aspects of the game that they do enjoy a great many times already. It seems to be the new go to tactic in order to try deflect from the points being raised and interestingly it's something only deployed somewhat recently.

Putting that aside, however, let's consider for a moment that the only obligation anybody has around these parts is to obey the established code of conduct. The weird attempts to police tone and content of posts beyond that is just that - weird. Feel free to chalk up any differences to conflicting personality types or culture clashes. Or the fact that not everybody speaks English as a primary language.

Many of us also primarily make use of Twitter or Discord to discuss the aspects of the game that we like. It's much easier to share fan art on both platforms, after all - and you don't have to deal with the unhinged posters who either send death threats or accuse you of being a 'fascist' if you dare to like or dislike the 'wrong' characters in this game.

'ur all just haters so go away' is what is really being insinuated here, let's be honest. It's just being dressed up politely.

Let's not pretend all of you have expressed something positive in regards to the game before. Some have, some haven't. When folks say you're negative (in general) they're referring to what is constantly posted and talked about. Can't call yourself a positive person if 90% of what you say is negative. I myself have said there's a place for both "sides". Speaking in general again to clarify.

People try to police tone and content both ways. It's just interesting that it's normally only an issue when one side does it n they get the labels. That's the same redundant song n dance there though admittedly.
There's unhinged posters no matter where you look. You'll just find more that share some of your views here from what I've seen. Make it an easy place to be in for anyone like that. "Your all just haters so go away", how many people are actally saying this? Hater (or anything akin to that) is one word I rarely ever see in this space. Bootlicker, White Knight, Critism Police, Shill. I see these far more frequently. That isn't to say that there aren't some that just want yall gone. But looking around you can easily see which are being used far more despite the forums leaning heavily to that very said hurling most of this around.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
If someone cares enough to complain about the game every single day there's a high possibility they still have some sort of strong attachment to it. Or maybe they realize what could have been. Or they just have high expectations and thought the game used to deliver on them.

But the opposite of love is hate though...why the term is "Love/Hate Relationship". Not Love/Indifference Relationship". Indifference is in the middle which doesn't have an opposite really. One could say an everyday complainer has a strong attachment, one could also say said person is doing it just for attention here and likes for an ego boost. That is very common these days in the boom of social media's. It's something you never really know when it comes to a person.

[Theodric]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at with that 'all of you' commentary. Are you insinuating that anybody who posts criticism is part of some sort of hive mind because that's certainly not the case. That being said, I've commented on this sort of thing before so I'll refer to one of my past posts relevant to the subject:



It really isn't a matter of 'both sides'. There's one side that is using the forum for its intended purpose and leaving feedback and then there's those who are following posters from thread to thread, reading into their every post in the most deceptive and bad faith manner and insinuating all manner of horrid things only to cry foul when they get a bit of light push back in response.

I sure wish the worst I ever got called around these parts was 'shill' or 'white knight'. It'd be preferable to the death threats, homophobic comments and even far worse bile that I've seen hurled at both myself and others that I've spoken with simply for liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters in the game or daring to claim that the game could stand to improve on various fronts.

The ignore function exists to rid the place of 'negativity' if one wants to pursue that route. Alternatively one could simply agree to disagree, which I believe is something that has been put forward many times already as a genuine offer.

[Jojoya]

It's really quite fascinating to see how certain posters repeatedly ignore the fact that those they deem to be 'negative' have repeatedly outlined the aspects of the game that they do enjoy a great many times already. It seems to be the new go to tactic in order to try deflect from the points being raised and interestingly it's something only deployed somewhat recently.

Putting that aside, however, let's consider for a moment that the only obligation anybody has around these parts is to obey the established code of conduct. The weird attempts to police tone and content of posts beyond that is just that - weird. Feel free to chalk up any differences to conflicting personality types or culture clashes. Or the fact that not everybody speaks English as a primary language.

Many of us also primarily make use of Twitter or Discord to discuss the aspects of the game that we like. It's much easier to share fan art on both platforms, after all - and you don't have to deal with the unhinged posters who either send death threats or accuse you of being a 'fascist' if you dare to like or dislike the 'wrong' characters in this game.

'ur all just haters so go away' is what is really being insinuated here, let's be honest. It's just being dressed up politely.

Some have. They're also usually the ones willing to have constructive discussions and have some respect for opposing opinions even if they don't agree with them.

But then there are the ones that are a flood of negativity, with the frequent "this game is terrible, all the devs deserve to be fired". It's very hard to see those individuals as being passionate about playing the game.

The problem with confining the positive remarks to Discord or Twitter is those remarks only reach those that share the specific social circles where you post. Anything said in Discord is unlikely to reach the developers. Anything said in Twitter is likewise unlikely to reach them unless one of the common FF specific hashtags that Community Managers look for is used.

Things posted here in the official forums can reach anyone who pulls up the forum. No account or active subscription is required to read, only to post.

If someone is only a hater, yes they should go away. If someone enjoys the game but has concerns, then let's have a constructive discussion here instead of one that amount to "the devs are all incompetent and have no idea how to make a good game, fire everyone".

Do we need some to follow some regulations of minimal positive things we say, just so we feel like we're legitimate? I'm talking just for myself - I very rarely talk here about things I like. You can check all my 300+ posts, I bet there is not a single praise about this game's music, even though that's one of my most favorite things about the game. I have something positive to say, but I usually won't say it, I don't see a reason. You yourself described it as "at the least does not see as a problem with the game" - why would I start talking about something that I don't see as problem? What would I achieve by that? Would it spark some interesting discussion? Very unlikely. This is why I don't just throw random praises into the void, I don't see a reason. It doesn't mean I passionately hate the game as some seem to think, it's just different mindset and different personality traits.

This is a good explanation of why most posts are going to be negative. Humans don't have a tendency to talk about the things they like or that meet expectations. They do want to talk about what doesn't.

But just because we have this tendency doesn't mean that it's the way it should be. The problem is that it sinks us into a well of negativity that can start to overshadow the positives.

The game developers do need to know what players are enjoying as much as what players feel need to be improved. If all they're getting is the negative feedback, that's got a high potential to impact their work performance. Why bother putting effort into anything if no one appreciates what they're doing?

[IkaraGreydancer]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at with that 'all of you' commentary. Are you insinuating that anybody who posts criticism is part of some sort of hive mind because that's certainly not the case. That being said, I've commented on this sort of thing before so I'll refer to one of my past posts relevant to the subject:



It really isn't a matter of 'both sides'. There's one side that is using the forum for its intended purpose and leaving feedback and then there's those who are following posters from thread to thread, reading into their every post in the most deceptive and bad faith manner and insinuating all manner of horrid things only to cry foul when they get a bit of light push back in response.

I sure wish the worst I ever got called around these parts was 'shill' or 'white knight'. It'd be preferable to the death threats, homophobic comments and even far worse bile that I've seen hurled at both myself and others that I've spoken with simply for liking or disliking the 'wrong' characters in the game or daring to claim that the game could stand to improve on various fronts.

The ignore function exists to rid the place of 'negativity' if one wants to pursue that route. Alternatively one could simply agree to disagree, which I believe is something that has been put forward many times already as a genuine offer.

You could just...you know quote me but whatever.

I never mentioned a hivemind. You did. It could be seen as such when so many like any agree with things that are just plain wrong which isn't exactly uncommon. But I wouldn't generally call it a hivemind.

Who exactly are these 2 groups? Because I've seen you say it's ok for folks to advocate for the devs firing n such. It's ok for folks to say anything negative and even attack the team because SE has them fed up. This was months ago but that was your words. What sort of feedback is that?

I don't think any is worst than the other. And some of the folks you've agreed with and defended in the past have thrown much of what you listed to others here. Hands aren't clean there and thats with many of us.

The ignore function doesn't rid the place of toxicity. It makes it so you don't see as much of it. Because folks quoting still show it. Agreeing to disagree has been put forward yet people don't want that and evidence shows. People need to be correct and if they can't "win" here be labels and insults.

[Theodric]

Then it seems to me this is something to work out on an individual basis, perhaps by reaching out to the posters in question to attempt to clear up any potential misunderstandings. I've done as such myself over the years and made a good few friends in the process.

There's also a point to be made about heat of the moment comments. I don't think Yoshi-P should be fired, for instance, though if someone does I'd question if they really meant it or if it were just hyperbole. Such comments can just be ignored, though, at the end of the day and any business is going to naturally filter out such comments whilst also not losing sight of feedback that is more constructive.

I don't know where this idea that I've voiced approval for people to call for the devs to be fired is coming from since I don't even know the poster(s) who used that particular talking point in recent threads and simply agreeing with someone on a different subject doesn't equal agreeing with everything that they state across the board...

[TheDecay]

Some have. They're also usually the ones willing to have constructive discussions and have some respect for opposing opinions even if they don't agree with them.

But then there are the ones that are a flood of negativity, with the frequent "this game is terrible, all the devs deserve to be fired". It's very hard to see those individuals as being passionate about playing the game.

The problem with confining the positive remarks to Discord or Twitter is those remarks only reach those that share the specific social circles where you post. Anything said in Discord is unlikely to reach the developers. Anything said in Twitter is likewise unlikely to reach them unless one of the common FF specific hashtags that Community Managers look for is used.

Things posted here in the official forums can reach anyone who pulls up the forum. No account or active subscription is required to read, only to post.

If someone is only a hater, yes they should go away. If someone enjoys the game but has concerns, then let's have a constructive discussion here instead of one that amount to "the devs are all incompetent and have no idea how to make a good game, fire everyone".


This is a good explanation of why most posts are going to be negative. Humans don't have a tendency to talk about the things they like or that meet expectations. They do want to talk about what doesn't.

But just because we have this tendency doesn't mean that it's the way it should be. The problem is that it sinks us into a well of negativity that can start to overshadow the positives.

The game developers do need to know what players are enjoying as much as what players feel need to be improved. If all they're getting is the negative feedback, that's got a high potential to impact their work performance. Why bother putting effort into anything if no one appreciates what they're doing?

The "haters" attack a video game/a company.
The "anti-haters" attack people.

Sorry, but the "haters" are here to stay.
The "anti-haters" should go away because they're quite literally only attacking people and posting nothing else of substance on the forums.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Then it seems to me this is something to work out on an individual basis, perhaps by reaching out to the posters in question to attempt to clear up any potential misunderstandings. I've done as such myself over the years and made a good few friends in the process.

There's also a point to be made about heat of the moment comments. I don't think Yoshi-P should be fired, for instance, though if someone does I'd question if they really meant it or if it were just hyperbole. Such comments can just be ignored, though, at the end of the day and any business is going to naturally filter out such comments whilst also not losing sight of feedback that is more constructive.

I don't know where this idea that I've voiced approval for people to call for the devs to be fired is coming from since I don't even know the poster(s) who used that particular talking point in recent threads and simply agreeing with someone on a different subject doesn't equal agreeing with everything that they state across the board...

Oh for sure. Issue is alot of folks have their minds made up about others and so getting to that state just isnt happening. You and I have had sme heated discussions in the past but I still respect the fact you came to my thread revolving around finding common ground despite our prior issues. Most just wrote me off as some troll alt which is exactly the problem hindering folk from understanding.

As for the next bit, my point is if you advocate for constructive feedback and opt to call out bad apples as you have, you don't call those who just hurl out things like that to SE and have personally told me they're fine to say that because SE has made them angry. You may not remember this but I do. I'm not saying you 100% agree with them but you did advocate for them before. Maybe you feel different now which is very possible.

The "haters" attack a video game/a company.
The "anti-haters" attack people.

Sorry, but the "haters" are here to stay.
The "anti-haters" should go away because they're quite literally only attacking people and posting nothing else of substance on the forums.

You've attacked people here plenty so no clue what your point is. Most folks here are guilty of it myself included. You aren't better than anyone else and telling people to go away from the forums is a form of silencing which I thought folks were against.
I don't get how you, a new poster can come in and say folks you don't agree with post nothing of substance. Get off the high horse...logic like yours is one of the biggest issues with the forums currently.

[Theodric]

I don't really make a habit out of telling people what they can or cannot post in general nor is it really my responsibility to do so in the first place. I'm nobody's father and I'm not a forum moderator either.

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding at play here? I often agree with what people are saying in general and don't really get caught up in the rest of it even if they're being aggressive. If someone gets heated when asking for more customisation options for male characters, for example, then I'm not going to suddenly disagree with their overall point even if they could have worded their post better.

People getting heated on the internet is something that has always happened and will continue to always happen. It is what it is. Tighter moderation and a persistent presence from our community representatives would mitigate the problem and I've made a thread requesting exactly that but it received no official response or acknowledgement so here we are.

[Nav_Fae]

The "haters" attack a video game/a company.
The "anti-haters" attack people.

Sorry, but the "haters" are here to stay.
The "anti-haters" should go away because they're quite literally only attacking people and posting nothing else of substance on the forums.

In a civil and respectable world, neither of those groups would be haters. They would be passionate players engaged in a discussion, debating wither or not they agree or disagree on a given topic. The "anti-haters" as you call them, have just as much right to defend whatever nonsense they don't want changed as the "haters" want to see changed. The difference is, it's a lot easier to play offense than it is to play defense on these forums. That's why to you, it feels like they do not contribute to the forum discussion because there really isn't much else for them to say other than, "I like things the way they are, please do not adjust it". Telling the "anti-haters" to go away is how you create an echo chamber. It's also disingenuous at gauging how many people are for or against a particular topic. Even if the "anti-haters" put up bad arguments. You'd still want to gauge how many people might be for or against a particular topic of criticism. They are a necessarily evil even if objectively obnoxious. Also, what you consider lack of substance may be considered substance to somebody else. It's also subjective.

PS: Telling the anti-haters to go away is no different from them telling others to play a different game. It's the same energy.