Crystalline Conflict Tier List (with deep maths!)

[IllidanFang]

It was a question? I guess it was all hidden beneath the edge.

that one missed chief try again

[IllidanFang]

Why insult the math or people who engage in doing it when you can't even count the avarage amount of buttons available per job in pvp? Ego is never uninvolved, maybe while asleep... Yours is screaming at you to show how much smarter you are doing 0 maths!

insulting math when you put rdm mobility low tier
whm aoe and cc low tier as well

ok

[Bluish]

insulting math when you put rdm mobility low tier
whm aoe and cc low tier as well

ok

I do not disagree with what you are saying but how you say it and keep in mind that it is thanks to this thread that a lot of people got to reflect on various jobs and what they are capable of, yourself included. You might find that some responses are both informative and helpful. The method here is flowed even if the math is good because the context is all that matters and this is complately outside of it. I think a survey which allows people who tried a job to rate it on various scales would provide a better picture in this case.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

insulting math when you put rdm mobility low tier
whm aoe and cc low tier as well

ok

I believe WHM AoE was the result of clerical error, which has been noted previously in the thread

WHM crowd control and RDM mobility rating has also been discussed several times

Reading the thread explains the thread

I do not disagree with what you are saying but how you say it and keep in mind that it is thanks to this thread that a lot of people got to reflect on various jobs and what they are capable of, yourself included. You might find that some responses are both informative and helpful. The method here is flowed even if the math is good because the context is all that matters and this is complately outside of it. I think a survey which allows people who tried a job to rate it on various scales would provide a better picture in this case.

We've tried to account for and/or control for context wherever possible--the rules of the rubric are all right there for everyone to see. From what I've seen so far in this thread, most people didn't bother reading the rubric at all and just looked at the graphs, which I can't say I didn't see coming. Keep in mind that because the scoring curve is bracketed for EXISTING minimums and maximums, these ratings are RELATIVE ratings, not absolutes. Just because something is rated a 2 in mobility doesn't mean it has strictly and literally poor mobility, it means that relative to the rest of the jobs, it has relatively poor options.

Asking people how they feel about certain attributes of certain jobs wouldn't be a very good indicator of anything, I think--then you'd get people saying that BRD has the best burst in the game or something LOL.

[Bluish]

I believe WHM AoE was the result of clerical error, which has been noted previously in the thread


Asking people how they feel about certain attributes of certain jobs wouldn't be a very good indicator of anything, I think--then you'd get people saying that BRD has the best burst in the game or something LOL.

You might be right but this raw math seemed to have presented a distorted picture for a number of jobs and it would be nice to see how that compares with how people experience playing the job. I don't think anyone who played bard enough would oversetimate their burst potency but I'm pretty sure that the job would be rated higher in some categories.

The context is in the difference between in vivo and in vitro. I was trying to think about a research method that might reflect in vivo performance. Surveys have their bias as any other method but a large survey can still produce a decent profile for each job. You did a good job in both explaining and presenting your calculations but you must see yourself that in case of bard the picture is far cry from reality.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

The context is in the difference between in vivo and in vitro. I was trying to think about a research method that might reflect in vivo performance. Surveys have their bias as any other method but a large survey can still produce a decent profile for each job. You did a good job in both explaining and presenting your calculations but you must see yourself that in case of bard the picture is far cry from reality.

I think if we did a survey it'd have to be modulated by rank in some way. Take SAM, for example. At low ranks, it can dominate with little more than Chiten/Zantetsuken, but it falls off around Diamond/Plat once people figure out how to deal with that. Then in higher Crystal, it becomes strong again when the SAM players figure out how to play without relying solely on LB cheese.

I guess in my initial disclaimer and rubric breakdown I shouldve been more clear with what this system is presenting: it is sanitized to measure, as closely as possible, what each job is capable of (relative to other jobs), given perfect play and perfect opportunities. This is to provide quantifiable and level baseline, which the reader can use to factor in the amount of difficulty and resistance that they expect their job(s) to encounter.

In other words, each player is supposed to interpret the data by adding context relevant to them. Anyone who has seen any stats in any other game (or sport, even) knows that numbers are never the whole story, and I suppose it was my mistake to assume that the CC community would approach this project with that notion in mind.

Re:BRD I'll keep saying it until I'm summarily executed on this hill, but BRD is a win-more value engine and force multiplier that only looks good if its team looks good. Maybe it can solo hard carry in Silver or something, but it certainly isn't going to be the star of the team in anything Diamond or above. It's a combat support that requires correct and timely follow-up to achieve anything of value, in a game full of melees and tanks that can either fulfill their own game plan or provide 85% solutions that only require their team to breathe on the enemy. It sits in a similar space to AST and SCH imo. As mentioned before, the flexibility and availability of its burst means it's good at mopping up kills that its team couldn't otherwise complete, which is probably why people have such a skewed perception of its lethality. But even that availability comes at a price, namely Empyreal requiring constant combat to achieve any reasonable cooldown. BRD can't just go hide somewhere and elixir while waiting for its burst window to come back up.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Rather than a survey to measure perception, maybe a more rigorous method would be to track the actual performance stats of people maining each job, with a handful of sample players in different rank brackets. I wish the ending scoreboard/stats screen had a 'detailed view' to track things like mitigation and crowd control score, but we're stuck with what we have.

[Bluish]

Rather than a survey to measure perception, maybe a more rigorous method would be to track the actual performance stats of people maining each job, with a handful of sample players in different rank brackets. I wish the ending scoreboard/stats screen had a 'detailed view' to track things like mitigation and crowd control score, but we're stuck with what we have.

I wish that too.

There's a post that refers to matchmaking in ranked where people end up going against uneven numbers of melee and ranged jobs, if that was not the problem bard would always be a bonus as one of 2-3 ranged jobs in any team. Bard can work with any other job to secure kills and provide a cover, doesn't have to stop moving or shooting save to lb or pot and the way lb can perk the team up at crucial times, you may as well call that hard carry. The nerf hurts but you can still have a ball as a bard or with a bard in your team. I will risk execution for saying that!

[Reimmi]

I had a bunch of success with Bard Players and especially trying it myself, Bard is very underrated.

This, the only thing i think is wrong with it is the range damage loss on filler is too much now that they have to get closer to the fight for their silence
they are not bad

[Prisma_xd]

My good lord, who let you cook... and why