Comprehensive Guide to the Kaiten and 6.1 SAM rework

[Valence]

I want to preface that I mostly agree with the general feeling behind the thread.

But bullet point 4 makes me chuckle every time. The closest comparison to kaiten is not a static healer rotation, but would be the old DRK's Dark Arts spamm, that everybody hated with a burning passion. And if anything, it was more intricate than kaiten because it affected many more skills in more varied ways. I find the irony pretty telling.

[Deo14]

I want to preface that I mostly agree with the general feeling behind the thread.

But bullet point 4 makes me chuckle every time. The closest comparison to kaiten is not a static healer rotation, but would be the old DRK's Dark Arts spamm, that everybody hated with a burning passion. And if anything, it was more intricate than kaiten because it affected many more skills in more varied ways. I find the irony pretty telling.

I don't mean it as comparison, it's more of an example of actual bad design. Basically, saying that X before every Y is bad design, when much worse designs like healers rotation are in the same game, seems kind of, I guess off-topic/irrelevant. Fixing these real issues should come before they try to fix these tiny ones.

[Tsumdere]

I want to preface that I mostly agree with the general feeling behind the thread.

But bullet point 4 makes me chuckle every time. The closest comparison to kaiten is not a static healer rotation, but would be the old DRK's Dark Arts spamm, that everybody hated with a burning passion. And if anything, it was more intricate than kaiten because it affected many more skills in more varied ways. I find the irony pretty telling.

And it has not reduced ability spam at all. DRK is busier now than ever before. So I have to ask, why was Dark Arts spam so bad when you just Edge spam now? It's literally the same thing with a different name and less interactivity (cuz Dark Arts actually augmented skills while Edge does nothing).

Why is Kaiten spam worse than Shinten spam? This is the same thing where Kaiten interacted with the kit more than Shinten does, but instead of adjusting it they just threw it out the window.

[Valence]

And could have been addressed, like Dark Arts, in several ways that were not just 'remove it entirely with no replacement'. Also, Dark Arts is just replaced by Edge spam now, no? We wanted to dump DA in raidbuffs then, and we want to dump Edge in raidbuffs now, so it's not exactly like much changed

No, it's not like Edge at all. It was literally like Kaiten and enhanced a lot of different skills of the DRK's arsenal, which technically was more interesting because it went beyond just "increase potency". But it turned out that you needed to use it all the time, much like kaiten for every iajutsu.

Dark Arts is still there as a passive buff mechanic behind TBN when it breaks, giving out a free Edge. That's completely different than what it used to be. They could have called it something entirely different, but decided instead to re-use the name.

But if you mean that you think people would be pleased by Kaiten making a return without the ability and without the awesome flair/visual it provided, but just there as a passive buff coming from someone, I have a big doubt about that... Else, just go play pvp, it's there as a passive buff actually (which is a big troll tbh, pvp has so many lost abilities just being there taunting players, it's silly).

And it has not reduced ability spam at all. DRK is busier now than ever before. So I have to ask, why was Dark Arts spam so bad when you just Edge spam now? It's literally the same thing with a different name and less interactivity (cuz Dark Arts actually augmented skills while Edge does nothing).

Why is Kaiten spam worse than Shinten spam? This is the same thing where Kaiten interacted with the kit more than Shinten does, but instead of adjusting it they just threw it out the window.

It's not the same thing, but it's definitely a spamm.

You see were I was going in any case. Why were people mad about the dark arts spamm, when they suddenly are mad that they got the kaiten spamm removed? What has changed in the mindset? Or is it just tied to the ability visuals? Something else?

[ForsakenRoe]

Why were people mad about the dark arts spamm, when they suddenly are mad that they got the kaiten spamm removed? What has changed in the mindset? Or is it just tied to the ability visuals? Something else?

This is what I was trying to get at. I liked SB DRK, once they did some much needed changes to it in 4.3, even if the majority of players thought 'its trash no damage' (they were incorrect). Why were people mad about DA spam, but are seemingly fine with Edge spam? Or as the case is, all the massive OGCD count of current DRK? The only things I can think of is 'pressing one button a lot (DA) Vs pressing like 5 different buttons for burst window (even if total APM is higher)', and the other is 'DA's effect is not instant, so the feedback isn't as pronounced as the instant 500p damage from Edge'. I guess similar applies to Kaiten, where you can't see the effect as much versus an upfront damage number like Senei or Shinten. Which is sad, because it just means that a whole class design paradigm, of 'enchant your weapon to deal additional effects' is potentially lost to us, because people don't like it if there's a skill that 'does nothing on it's own, but enhances the next action in some way'

Oh wait we have that on SGE still. Oh wait we have Continuation, now also on Burst Strike. Oh wait, people pine for the Royal Road days of AST. Oh wait we have Kaiten threads still, 3 patches of radio silence after it's removal. Maybe people DO like that kind of gameplay, and the devs removing it was a mistake they refuse to accept they screwed up on, for whatever reason

[Post]

This is what I was trying to get at. I liked SB DRK, once they did some much needed changes to it in 4.3, even if the majority of players thought 'its trash no damage' (they were incorrect). Why were people mad about DA spam, but are seemingly fine with Edge spam?...

I think can answer that one. I didn't like StB DA spam compared to edge spam because of the doubled (relative) consumption of DA in StB when compared with its consumption in HW. Edge doesn't compete for any of the rest of DRK'S toolkit other than TBN, and it's much easier to hang onto 3kmp for that than working with DA was on the whole in StB.

Often in StB DRK you could get locked out of applying DA to an oGCD because they not only reworked the only GCD combo finisher that did not consume DA (Delirium), but applied the same flat DA bonus to a second hit in the combo (Syphon Strike), which you also HAD to press to generate MP given the constant drain from Darkside if you were between Blood Prices and Weapons.

Because of this, it actually exacerbated the floor of using MP for mitigation when they threw in TBN and more double weaving required so you didn't eat your DA on a flat 140 potency buff to your next GCD if it wasn't Hard Slash. Not to mention, TBN, DA and Dark Passenger all costed the same, so that was like 60% of your MP bar if you used two in conjunction, and saving that amount meant overcapping was not so hard to do when you were in Blood Price/Weapon.

DA went from "enhances your strong actions" to "applies 140 potency to probably your next action" and became more like a chore at best or a hindrance to using my enhanced dark mind or passenger at worst. It had the same treatment as AST cards got going into ShB, and the fewer amount of free time to use it (no scourge, no pre-syphon strike oGCD, more time spent in blood weapon with new Delirium) and less MP to work with (no Blood Price out of Grit, higher cost on all spells and TBN competing for MP now) just made it feel more like filler than a feature.

Not to say I don't miss DA. I just think it worked a lot better in HW when its cost was lower and it wasn't consumed by 2/3 of your basic GCDs. Maybe if they untethered DA consumption from one of the only actions always available to build MP, and used, I dunno, THE MP BAR for DRK's gauge in StB instead of Blood it woulda been received better. That's basically how it works today, except it has WAR fell cleaves slapped on there cuz everyone loves Fell Cleave. Bloodspiller could just have been a high MP cost big attack, maybe costing "up to" like Flare, or like Eventide does in PvP.

[Shurrikhan]

I think can answer that one. I didn't like StB DA spam compared to edge spam because of the doubled (relative) consumption of DA in StB when compared with its consumption in HW. Edge doesn't compete for any of the rest of DRK'S toolkit other than TBN, and it's much easier to hang onto 3kmp for that than working with DA was on the whole in StB.

Interesting. I preferred that filler-DA did compete with more non-filler MP expenditures than just TBN. I didn't particularly like that we had to double-weave in order to avoid spending DA on our next GCD, but I liked having the option of at-offensive-cost sustain via DA-AD (as it didn't add potency, only its capacity to heal) and having rotational milestones like CnS or potential DM/DD to retain MP margin for.

Granted, we could as easily support that even now by just... say... adjusting CnS slightly --splitting it truly into a three-hit attack, so that for each 1000 MP you have above 3k, it consumes 1k MP to augment one of its "threefold strikes" to deal (a third of an Edge's) additional damage-- and perhaps turning AD into a no-CD, pitiful-damage lowish-duration debuff that causes the DRK's strikes against its victims to heal that DRK for ~25% of damage dealt. Not that we particularly need to do so; just food for thought.

DA went from "enhances your strong actions" to "applies 140 potency to probably your next action"

Agreed. Losing the ability to avoid spending it made it feel far, far clunkier.

Granted, I'd prefer to have avoided the issue the altogether by making it a follow-up skill, almost as if every weaponskill had a shared one-step Continuation button that they could spend MP on. Each would have their own Dark Arts: [Conditional Name] action, complete with their own effect and animation (though quick, somewhat self-similar, and not overly flashy). Abilities, on the other hand, would simply turn into their second steps, again at optional MP cost.

Souleater: Does Souleater. Hit Dark Arts after: Appears to yoink the enemy's soul out, dealing an additional (60% of Edge's) potency of damage and healing for 100% of damage dealt. Damage and healing both increased by 1% per the lower of your or your target's %HP missing.

Carve and Spit: Strike 3 times, generating 600 MP each. Hit that same button again (for its "Dark Arts" effect), and you spend that 1800 MP and up to 3000 more atop it for some pretty massive damage.

Dark Mind: The normal effect. Hit it again to, say, heal for 30% of magical damage nullified over the last 5 seconds.

Not to say I don't miss DA. I just think it worked a lot better in HW when its cost was lower and it wasn't consumed by 2/3 of your basic GCDs.

Its relative cost was still pretty similar even in HW, tbf. It was 25% of maximum MP, as compared to... 30%. And, ofc, its impact on total potency was much lower in HW than it was in Shadowbringers (for EW, I would have to calculate again for Shadowbringer and the additions to Living Shadow). So... /shrug.

Maybe if they untethered DA consumption from one of the only actions always available to build MP, and used, I dunno, THE MP BAR for DRK's gauge in StB instead of Blood it woulda been received better. That's basically how it works today, except it has WAR fell cleaves slapped on there cuz everyone loves Fell Cleave. Bloodspiller could just have been a high MP cost big attack, maybe costing "up to" like Flare, or like Eventide does in PvP.

Sure, I guess. You'd then effectively have two separate abilities for 'DA for sustain' and 'filler DA for mere potency' and removed the latter half, giving that instead to Bloodspiller/Quietus (with an efficiency, and therefore priority, below that of Dark Passenger and Carve and Spit). I don't know whether I'd have preferred that, necessarily --as I kind of liked the fact that jobs would more noticeably ramp up back then-- but it'd be less clunky, yeah.

But then... that's also effectively just GCD-Edge, with the option to bring back a Darkrasia for our oGCD skills (that is, if tanks were ever again allowed to make trades between sustain and offense). /shrug