Rotations: Making them DIFFERENT

[SenahPanipahr]

As someone still progressing through the story, I always assumed their rotations would "get better" (i.e. exist in the first place), or that encounters would start to demand much more healing. I love support roles in other games, but honest to god, finding out that they spent the last two expansions cutting Healer complexity so dramatically is the most upsetting thing I've experienced relative to this game. If I end up quitting, that will almost certainly be the primary reason.

Tanks and Healers both feel so homogenised, but on Healer it's so much more stark and depressing. The result is healer is only fun when there's a disaster going on -- if everyone in your party is excellent, playing Healer leaves you bored-to-tears.

[ForsakenRoe]

As someone still progressing through the story

This is the kind of post that makes me angry about the state of healers more than any other - someone who is progressing the story, the exact target of the 'make it less stressful for the casuals' changes SHB brought about, saying that it's boring. It shows that the changes were a complete failure, as they removed things for the sake of a section of the playerbase who don't feel the supposed positive effect of those changes, only the negative. It's impossible to say either way with people who have only experienced SHB healing onwards (and were not around for SB), but I would bet real money that if they were able to experience SB healing in some way (ie a private server, SE putting up a PTR of sorts to gauge feedback, etc), the majority would say they prefer having SB style gameplay, compared to what we have now

As for the post I'm responding to, I'd recommend looking into Dancer, and I see you've got RDM as your main class on the forums, which is the other I'd have suggested. Supporting allies is fun, healers in this game are uhh... prog's cool when everything's going wrong, sure. But the better we get at a fight, the more bland it becomes, it's very backwards in design.

[SenahPanipahr]

As for the post I'm responding to, I'd recommend looking into Dancer[...]

I actually have levelled every job to somewhere between 70 and 81 (except RPR, haven't unlocked that yet) so I have tried dancer a bit. Personally I have found it very dull compared to BRD, but maybe it becomes a little more interesting later on (much how early DRG is extremely rote but actually fun from around 72). Since you choose three jobs in the character selection screen on the forum, I just picked the jobs I play most in each role (RDM, SCH, PLD(/DRK)), and assumed all three would show up. Silly me!

I imagine I'm not super representative, as I love learning complex systems (enough that I've been getting into FFXI retail -- in no small part a result of my disappointment with job diversity in XIV). But I can't say I think you're wrong or anything ... maybe the "toxic casuals" ("you don't pay for my sub" types) would disagree, but I'm not sure anyone could in the long run. Healer is a fun way to experience new content, but once you know it (and more importantly, once others know it too) it quickly goes downhill.

The sad reality is, as a Healer main I've ended up subconsciously assuming other Healers struggle with the mechanics if they're playing those jobs by choice, because contrary to all the commends you get, it's far too easy. I mained Healer because I like the concept, but a big part of it was that it's often the only way to reliably cause the previous endgame raids and alliances to fire as you're progressing their questlines. But that just reinforces the sad truth that almost no one seems to want to play Healer at the moment. I can't imagine how many more hours I'd have wasted waiting on those queues to fire as a DPS...

Sage feels like a step in the right direction, but also highlights how bad the situation is; that the "DPS-focused Healer" still spends most of the time mashing the same button.

The lack of hard job roles in FFXI has been such a breath of fresh air from this system where 3/4 Healers are almost exactly the same during 99% of playtime, and 3/4 Tanks are the same builder-spender playstyle. The perceived need for everything to be perfectly balanced so you can take your "class fantasy" to any content is backfiring when the expression of that class fantasy is only skin-deep aesthetics, and the actual gameplay is exactly the same 99% of the time.

I've refrained from trying to buy a house despite having the crafting skills to furnish one, because I can't imagine myself continuing my sub enough to keep it in the long term. Maybe that's a different issue, but the collective experience of such startling highs and depressing lows is really starting to upset me.

[ty_taurus]

I actually have levelled every job to somewhere between 70 and 81 (except RPR, haven't unlocked that yet) so I have tried dancer a bit. Personally I have found it very dull compared to BRD, but maybe it becomes a little more interesting later on (much how early DRG is extremely rote but actually fun from around 72).

Honestly, Dancer really relies on its entire kit to feel more fulfilling. A lot of the enjoyment, for me at least, stems from trying to set up every burst window to be as perfect as possible. It's a job that I think really suffers from having so many of its more interesting tools earned so late. I really want to see Flourish moved down to level 50, a weaker Saber Dance learned between 50 and 60, and Fan Dance IV moved down to 74. It would help the leveling experience and the synched experience a lot more.

[ForsakenRoe]

Honestly, Dancer really relies on its entire kit to feel more fulfilling.

Happens to a lot of jobs nowadays, annoyingly. RPR feels dogwater without Enshroud which you only get at 80, SGE feels more and more wonky the lower you sync, as you're forced into more and more GCD healing to cover the OGCDs you normally have, and I'd never have decided to do SHB story as GNB if it weren't for being able to see what it's like at 70 via HOH, Continuation instantly sold me on the job but without that HOH run to test it, GNB-at-60 was WAR level dull to me

They really gotta make more use of traits that upgrade things for jobs, give lower level/reduced effect versions of things (eg, at one point Barrage gave your next attack 2 hits, and a trait later made it be 3 hits). DNC not getting Flourish till 72 makes the class feel like a car that can't start cos it's too cold

[Renathras]

someone who is progressing the story, the exact target of the 'make it less stressful for the casuals' changes SHB brought about,

Note that these are not the same people. Someone progressing the story may be a hardcore gamer, not a casual, and many casuals are up to date with the MSQ. Likewise, note the poster said specifically "I love support roles in other games", not "I am a casual" or "I love healer roles in other games", and in reply also noted "I imagine I'm not super representative, as I love learning complex systems".

I'm not saying that invalidates her views, but it is important to consider that it's not the same thing you're saying, and it really is more of what people say all the time - individual tastes.

I'd also say DNC/RDM might be more up her alley, as they are the most Support Jobs in the game and, as I've said before, if FFXIV would ever just bite the bullet and make a full on Support role, those two Jobs (along with at least BRD) would likely be its founding members.

(I do agree that FFXI's combat system being less rigid - thus allowing less rigid roles - is a pretty nice system. Wish more games would use it...)

Agreed with this, though:

They really gotta make more use of traits that upgrade things for jobs, give lower level/reduced effect versions of things (

As Ty said, SMN does this to great effect. Say what you will about the Job, it's more or less set by level 50 with its core rotation and everything added from there is kind of variations and additions to it. WAR does a pretty solid Job of this as well, with WAR at 50 playing a lot like WAR at 90 does, just with 90 having more flourish and some more utility (I mean the core rotation; obviously Raw Intuition is a game changer...)

[vetch]

WAR does a pretty solid Job of this as well, with WAR at 50 playing a lot like WAR at 90 does, just with 90 having more flourish and some more utility (I mean the core rotation; obviously Raw Intuition is a game changer...)

Maybe I'm being excessively technical but I don't really feel like this is true. The burst is a different shape (at 50 it's a DPS gain to put your third combo hit under Berserk instead of a third Inner Beast), you don't have your 'lol just burst whenever buffs go up' Inner Release button so you actually have to build to spend with your builder-spender, and the mitigation is far and away the *worst* of any tank's.

PLD is still the god of 50 MINE raid tanking (same as it ever was) but DRK and GNB are respectable too, with DRK lately getting an invuln that's tricky to maximize but excellent and GNB having extra mits and heals. Meanwhile WAR has less mits than every other tank and its "invuln" is extremely underpowered due to the empty healer kits. Sure, the WHM can Bene it at the last second or the AST can Synastry spam it, but, er, they can also just do that to any other, better tank. Oh, but WAR gets to pop Thrill of Battle for a Hi-Potion's worth of eHP. Yay.

[Aravell]

Honestly, Dancer really relies on its entire kit to feel more fulfilling. A lot of the enjoyment, for me at least, stems from trying to set up every burst window to be as perfect as possible. It's a job that I think really suffers from having so many of its more interesting tools earned so late. I really want to see Flourish moved down to level 50, a weaker Saber Dance learned between 50 and 60, and Fan Dance IV moved down to 74. It would help the leveling experience and the synched experience a lot more.

Honestly, DNC feels extra awful in UCoB and UWU because they don't have Flourish. It always feels like something is missing whenever you use Technical Step. Same as RPR feeling extra awful in TEA because you don't have Communio, so Enshroud kind of just ends, also no Plentiful Harvest for Enshroud opener. SAM also feeling generally awful in lv70 content.

[SenahPanipahr]

Honestly, Dancer really relies on its entire kit to feel more fulfilling. A lot of the enjoyment, for me at least, stems from trying to set up every burst window to be as perfect as possible. It's a job that I think really suffers from having so many of its more interesting tools earned so late. I really want to see Flourish moved down to level 50, a weaker Saber Dance learned between 50 and 60, and Fan Dance IV moved down to 74. It would help the leveling experience and the synched experience a lot more.

That explains it I guess. Most of my dancer experience has been tiredly retreading the Crystal Tower alliance raids (I wish they'd lower the item level sync, if they refuse to incentivise people running/unlocking other alliance raids), or if I'm lucky, one of the Mhach raids. Maybe I assumed because I already have everything bound and it's not that many buttons that it wouldn't play very differently at higher levels, but I understand the error in presuming that. I did wonder if I was missing something, given Zepla seems to be rather fond of DNC.

@ForsakenRoe No kidding, SGE is so strange feeling at lower levels. Personally I wouldn't complain if they just made it that certain jobs couldn't do duties below a certain level via roulettes, but maybe that would cause other issues.

[ForsakenRoe]

given Zepla seems to be rather fond of DNC.

To my knowledge, she was super into AST in SB (idk if it was her main though), but after it got SHB'd AND DNC came out at the same time she moved over to maining that, I don't know what she thinks of the game as of super recently because last time I saw anything about her she was on a Genshin deepdive and was saying that the patch that had just came out (loporrits i think) was so sparse on content it'd be the first patch she wouldn't log into 'on release day', because she can just do it later and not miss out on anything whatsoever. I also recall her mentioning quite passionately about the SB AST cards and how much she missed them (or at least, having different cards having different effects instead of flat +X% damage) so... yeh, my takeaway from what I've seen is that she misses the feeling of 'supporting the team' that old AST gave and the closest you can get now is, ironically not new AST, but DNC, given it's got a heal, mit, ST damage boost, raidbuff damage boost, crit/DHit booster for yourself and one ally, it now has Improv for HP% restored increase, plus shield, plus regen too

It also has, while quite simple to get into, an actual damage rotation with a very decent amount of depth to optimize with, so yeh, I'm not surprised that she is fond of DNC. I'm not a massive fan of DPS classes as a role, but I'd probably say DNC is my 'least disliked' as it were

@ForsakenRoe No kidding, SGE is so strange feeling at lower levels. Personally I wouldn't complain if they just made it that certain jobs couldn't do duties below a certain level via roulettes, but maybe that would cause other issues.

Doubt 'lock job out of low level content' would go down well, like imagine next expansions jobs (which start at 80) being told 'yeh so you cant do UCOB or UWU, like, at all'. What they need to do is add lower level forms of stuff earlier, and upgrade it later. There's no reason WHM has to go 76 levels before getting 'AOE Lily spender'. In fact, there's no real reason for it to only get it's job mechanic (lilies) at 52 with Solace. For SGE, add Holos (the shield part) early, and upgrade it to have the mit later at current level. Or add Krasis-but-10% earlier to help Kardia feel like it does something. Physis1 and Physis2 is a good example of it being done 'right', I think. You get 1 early on, and at 60 it upgrades to 2 and gains the 'bonus heal%' effect on top. Do that more

Also once this next expansion's over, we're gonna be level 100. Halve every duty's level requirement, and cut our max level to 50. ARR becomes 1-25, each expansion is a 5 level bracket instead of 10. This helps populate the levelling process, as you'll be getting your skills-or-traits every level pretty much.

A good example due to it currently having a TWELVE level gap in it's levelling, ARR BRD:

1: Heavy Shot
2: Straight Shot
3: Raging Strikes
4: Venomous Bite
6: Bloodletter
8: Repelling Shot (lol)
9: Quick Nock
12: Windbite
15: Mage's Ballad/job unlocked here
17: Warden's
19: Barrage
20: Army's Paeon
22: Rain of Death
25: Battle Voice/ARR level cap

Wow look at that, the biggest gap in learning is only three levels like this, not twelve, seriously, quicknock to windbite atm is 12 levels it's ridiculous. Yeh you get a 10% damage boost trait (bland and boring) and a couple of role actions like an interrupt (nothing to interrupt at that level except sprite autoattacks) and peloton (ok kinda cool, but combat removes it which would lose it points in the eyes of a new player i think), but a 12 level gap in learned 'core rotational abilities' should be... not a thing, methinks. Just having something like an intermediary upgrade to a skill, or a lower form of one, like the old 'Barrage that hits twice', which upgrades at current learn level to 'Barrage but it hits 3x' would be SOMEthing to fill the gap at least.