Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[EderTheBro]

Every one of them? There's not a single Healer that doesn't have a DoT based damage rotation.

Lmao Dia Glarex12 isn't even a rotation much less a DoT based damage rotation

[BaconBits]

If you or someone you love has been disturbed by the Renathras Rustle, please contact 1-800-EOR-ZEAN as you may be entitled to conpensation.

[Renathras]

So you're not the only one that feels like the other side isn't even trying to understand your position. We probably both just got heated in the moment, I'll just forget this whole thing happened if we want to be civil with each other again, I'm willing, are you?

This...I find agreeable. In this, we're in accord.

I don't think you're a bad person, and you're better to talk to than a lot of people here (that...may not sound it, but it is a complement/intended as a complement), it's just frustrating when I'm doing the exact opposite of what you accuse me of and you accuse me of things anyway, and when I try to explain things, you take that as even more reason to oppose me instead of realizing that I'm not doing those negative things you say I am, and then you say it's just statements, not accusations, when they feel a lot like accusations, especially when you're using them to justify your responses.

In simple terms:

Please don't assume I'm attacking you all the time when I'm not. I know it can be hard and it seems you have this same problem in reverse. I'm not sure the best approach other than we should each just try to assume the other person is being nice and acting in good faith rather than assuming the opposite? Assume misunderstanding or confusion instead of malice?

One of my favorite life quotes is related to this (supposedly attributed to Gandhi, though no idea what the true origin is): "Never assume malice when ignorance is a possible explanation. People are far more often stupid than they are evil." While "stupid" isn't quite where I like to go with it, the point is more that people often misunderstand things, but are rarely malicious.

I'm not malicious, and I don't think you are, so maybe we just have to go into conversations with each other assuming that if the other person seems antagonistic, they aren't, it's just a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up?

[Aravell]

I'm not malicious, and I don't think you are, so maybe we just have to go into conversations with each other assuming that if the other person seems antagonistic, they aren't, it's just a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up?

I don't believe you're malicious, I'd also rather have civil conversation than mud slinging, so let's put this in the past. As for the misunderstandings, perhaps it's just cultural difference, maybe some things aren't considered insults to me that they are to you. I'll ask for clarification next time I see something that seems off, and I hope you'll do the same.

[Ken_8O]

My summoner!! No touch! No touchy!!! It’s perfect I love it!! ❤️❤️❤️

[Deo14]

You're the only one acting in bad faith here. You've consistently insisted that someone else who isn't you said something, and when the person proved you were wrong, instead of saying "Oh, I'm sorry. I misinterpreted what you said and I should have asked for clarity instead of jumping on a bandwagon dogpile on you", you instead attacked me for YOUR misunderstanding, insisted YOU WERE STILL RIGHT and that I had to admit and apologize for being wrong about something I wasn't even wrong about, and have used that for days/weeks now to continue your one-man crusade inquisition, all because you can't admit you made a mistake and attacked a person when you should have talked to them like a Human being first.

And you continue to do this, across multiple threads (that's stalking/harassment, btw), even ignoring that in the posts you AREN'T harassing me outright, I'm treating you with good faith and providing arguments and counter points. You continue to goad at me over and over. When you make posts that include goading alongside actual argument, and I respond to the argument, you ignore that to go after whatever response I gave (or didn't) to the goading, proving your entire goal is to harass and annoy me and try to get me to blow up on you, even with me repeatedly turning you down and saying I want no part in your childish feud.

You need to grow up before anyone can believe you're acting in good faith. And the endless - ENDLESS - snark in your posts directed at me isn't helping your case.

Indeed, it's a combination of ridiculous and shocking you're accusing me of trying to irritate YOU when you're the one who's got a self-declared war on me and I'm actually here trying to be even-handed. If you don't want to be "the bad guys", then stop acting in bad faith, stop the snark, stop the egging on, and actually come to the table as an equal instead of on a pedestal.

I've tried to be calm and acomodating, but good GOD you don't make it easy. When you end your personal crusade against me, maybe then you'll realize I'm not the bad guy here and if you actually give compromise a chance, you might find middle ground.

I just don't know what's your deal. Please check my post history, from the point where we first started to talk and tell me if there is some bad blood. Bad blood was caused by your bullshit, your insistinence on being wrong, your underhanded tactics to try and prove your arguments and your complaining about mild sarcastic remarks, which I started to do after I gave up on you. Which was unfortunately very quick, since you claimed that "NIN has button inflation" which is extra funny, since you made whole thread about NIN when you don't even play it. Then you continued to say that every job should be reduced to 29 buttons, so your wittle fingies won't get hurt. Anyways, here's thread for the zero number of people who are interested with mine and Ren's argument.

Again, there are no witch hunts, people just dog pilled on you after your inane claims about slidecasting, which could be prevented by you just admitting you were wrong. If you keep constantly making a clown of yourself, don't be surprised people will treat you like one. If you think I'm harassing and stalking you for talking in similar threads (surprise, people with similar interests will end up talking in similar threads) and ocassionally make a mild sarcastic remarks, then go ahead, cope, whatever helps you sleep at night.

But in the end, everything "mean" I said were just mere remarks, which I didn't think mature person like you could be offended by. If you got offended by them, I apologize, and I would also want to future proof this and apologize for the future "mean" remarks towards you.

[When talking to Ren]
I don't believe you're malicious, I'd also rather have civil conversation than mud slinging, so let's put this in the past. As for the misunderstandings, perhaps it's just cultural difference, maybe some things aren't considered insults to me that they are to you. I'll ask for clarification next time I see something that seems off, and I hope you'll do the same.

Aravell had good point, maybe in your culture are mild remarks considered much more serious or something. But yeah, I'll rather not ask clarifictions like she did, I don't want to be bombarded with more of your essays.

Anyways, to actual argument:

Jobs don't become "redundant" because one does more damage, otherwise every Job but GNB, SGE, BLM, SAM, and MCH wouldn't be played. Nor do Jobs become "redundant" when they're harder and there's an easier option, otherwise every Job but PLD, WHM, RPR, MCH(?), and SMN wouldn't be played.

CLEARLY players are factoring things into their decisions besides "does the most damage" or "is the easiest".

When I talk about damage, I mean overall damage that job contributes to the team (which can be more complex to evalute). Seems like you thought I just mean nDPS/aDPS, which is obviously nonsense.

As for your examples, things are more complex than you make it out to be. There are jobs which are objectively easier or harder, deal more or less damage, some of them are encounter specific, and every job is somewhere on spectrums of all of these things, which cannot be simplified into single paramter. SAM is pretty strong overall, but bad at ultimates, BLM is very ecounter-dependant, DNC will have lesser impact if his team cannot utilize his buffs and so on.

The thing is, that difference of difficulty between hardest and easiest melee isn't very high, so people don't feel so forced to make their decisions based on that. When it comes to casters, BLM is super (conditionally) difficult, RDM is nice middle ground, and SMN is brain-dead. The difference of difficulty between, for example SAM and RPR, is much smaller compared to RDM and SMN, and data shows that it is so significant, that it absolutely affects how many people play SMN compared to RDM. In other words, this makes RDM redundant, especially since both jobs already have ress, RDM just doesn't have many upsides compared to SMN, so people play it significantly less, even though RDM was very popular in ShB.

[Mosha]

Wrong answer, McFly.

Try again.

Lmao that's so cringe that I made it my signature

[Renathras]

...

"your bullshit"
"your insistinence on being wrong"
"your underhanded tactics"
"your complaining"
"your inane claims"
"making a clown of yourself"
"cope"
"I don't want to be bombarded with more of your essays"

I'm pretty sure you could go to any culture, say those types of things about people, and find they would take offense. They clearly aren't meant to be flattering. What culture are you from where these things are not negative things to say about a person?

And that's just THIS ONE POST! You've done this same level in all of your replies to me for the last week. I have to wonder what culture you come from where that would be acceptable. Imagine living in a city with someone and every time you run into them at work, at their place of business, or on the street, you said those or similar things about them - that many all at once, at EACH instance of running across them.

In what culture on Earth would that NOT be considered rude and antagonistic?

Also, when you lie about what people say?

Can you find any post where I ever said "every job should be reduced to 29 buttons"? Your claim:

Then you continued to say that every job should be reduced to 29 buttons,

I think it came up when someone asked me what would be ideal (that someone, btw, was you), and even then, I said different Jobs having more or less is fine, but it shouldn't be every Job HAVING MORE. Here's the pertinent quote:

For me personally, about 29 buttons is where we should draw the line. That allow for Sprint, LB, and Potion to fit in 32, and 29 is still a lot of buttons. I'm not sure why "29 is too few...but 35 is just right" comes into play, as that's a difference of only 6 buttons.

...
I do agree not every Job is for everyone, though. But there also is an issue of, as the game has more expansions, new abilities are added. There comes a point where it's just too many buttons for ANYONE. Where that is depends on the person - for me it's 29, for someone else it may be 40 - but if we don't see some reductions/combinations in rational and intelligent ways, eventually we surpass whatever that is.

...

It is fine if some Jobs have more. I'm not saying none can. But they should actually have value and justify their place on the hotbar slot, and you should really have down around 16 or so for high use and burst. That's a lot of buttons if you actually think about it. 1-0 and then 1-6 again.

...which people reading would generally find agreeable. "Some Jobs having more and some less than ~30 buttons? Yeah, that makes sense. Buttons should actually have value? Yeah, that makes sense, too. If we keep adding more buttons, sooner or later it will be to much after half a dozen expansions of an average of 2 more buttons per expansion? Yeah, that makes sense, to. Oh, this person thinks 29 is about right for listed reasons (having 3 more for Sprint, LB, and Potion), but doesn't think every Job should be this way? That sounds fair enough, 30 IS a lot of buttons."

And other people there were agreeing with me, so it's not like I was the only one with that view. You were picking fights with them too and attacking their definitions of "button bloat", for crying out loud, which prompted this reply:

Using more buttons than is necessary to accomplish identical or better ends.

...Seriously, why are we making this about some arbitrary tipping point in button count?



If I give you 3 buttons for Glare that can be used in any order for the same potency, it's still just Glare... and thereby bloat, regardless of whether you have 3 other actions or 30.

In the same sense, there is absolutely no point in having both Huraijin and Armor Crush when you can just have either act as a Huraijin outside of combo and as Armor Crush (but with 30s Huton granted instead of just 30s Huton refreshed) after Gust Blade.

And note I didn't just throw that number out of thin air. Not only did I have a reason for it, but I only posted it at all because you asked me to:

So where do you think we should draw the line?

You can't ask a person a question then try to attack them for giving you an honest answer!

You can DISAGREE with their answer, but if you asked them a question, and they gave you a good faith, honest answer, using that as an attack against them is just wrong - and you ARE using it as an attack, since this is ABSOLUTELY an attack:

Then you continued to say that every job should be reduced to 29 buttons, so your wittle fingies won't get hurt.

Seriously, who says "so your wittle fingies won't get hurt" in a serious conversation? Especially when that person, in that VERY SAME POST, is insisting their comments aren't meanspirited or insulting? No, that wasn't some cutsey "little bit of sarcasm" or whatever else you're trying to play your abuse off as. A typical thing people abusing and harassing others do is try to downplay their abuse. Verbally abusing someone and then saying "I was only joking" or "It was just a few little sarcastic remarks" when you have a record of abuse across your posts for the last week. The posts are still there. Take your posts this last week, post them without context, just the text, to any neutral website and ask "Does this come across as being mean?" and I'd wager you'll get a lot of people saying "Very much so, yes."

.

Half the time, I think your attacks on me come from you just reading things into my posts that aren't there and then getting mad at your misinterpretations.

I won't bother - again - pointing out you were wrong and you refuse to admit or apologize for it. Unlike you, I make no such demands. I just want you to stop bringing them up over and over again, because I can't spend every single post proving you wrong just for you to insist you were still right and I'm wrong about you - yet again - misinterpreting what I said. This is true both in the slidecasting conversation AND the NIN conversation. In both cases, you either read something into my posts that wasn't there OR interpreted something wrong. And in both cases, I've corrected the record, but you still insist on your initial wrong impression being true, and that making me wrong, AND use it as an excuse to continue harassing me in other conversations by bringing it up over and over again.

And every time I point out what I meant, you insist that I couldn't have possibly meant that, and that the mere act of explaining/clarifying so you can understand correctly what I said and meant is me being "underhanded".

So you know, you can't read people's minds. If you say "You said this, it's wrong!" and they say "Look at what I actually said. Notice where I said that and that and this over here. THIS is what I meant", or "What are you talking about? I didn't even say that, here's the post you're referencing and it's not even in there!", then you should listen. If people tell you you are wrong about what they said or were trying to say, you insisting they were trying to say something else is you insisting you can read their mind and know their mind better than they do. AT BEST, this is pretty rude. At middle bad, it's you clinging to any thread you can to save face, and doing so at someone else's expense. And at worst, you then using that face saving to attack and harass them is just being bad, especially since you started the crusade in the first place and the other person didn't instigate anything with you. YOU took it upon yourself to be the arbiter of truth and smack them with your judgement hammer, picking a fight you could not win and then refusing to let it go. Note that I never did anything to institute your antagonism towards me. Hell, everyone else in that conversation has long since left it behind - BOTH those conversations - yet you keep bringing them up in thread after thread after thread to try to insist you were right no matter what and impugn my character.

Can you not see how that could come across as rude or antagonistic? Bringing something up that, to everyone else, is settled and that you were arguably not even right on in the first place and that you weren't even part of the conversation on but chose to interject yourself into, in thread after thread, unbidden and unrelated to the conversations going on in the other threads, and explicitly to damage the perception of a user? How that might seem to be harassment or a self-appointed crusade on your part?

God, I hope you never get indicted for a crime - you'd consider defending yourself underhanded, apparently.

Anyways, to actual argument:

I agree with a point you made here, specifically that what people use to evaluate and pick Jobs is overall complex. Indeed, that was my own argument that you're replying to! "CLEARLY players are factoring things into their decisions besides 'does the most damage' or 'is the easiest'." which you quoted there.

So we agree on that, yes.

I'm not seeing RDM as redundant. It is still taken to content. You might say "But it's taken to content less than in ShB!"

Yes: Because EW is full of body checks that have SEVERELY devalued combat raises. In most encounters where people go KO, you have one, MAYBE two raises, and have to be extremely quick to salvage the situation. Often times in Ex6, for example, one or two people will die either right before the first towers (causing a wipe) or right before or during the second Gales (causing a wipe in either the 2 man circles or light party stacks). This gives you an EXTREMELY narrow window to raise, the person accept the raise, the person get into position, and the person be at least healed enough to soak the damage they have to to prevent a wipe.

You're tuned into encounter design and current content, so I'm sure you're aware of this, yes?

RDM also ticked up in difficulty from ShB. By reducing the cost of its melee combo, it increased the skill ceiling of the Job. And as many people were playing RDM in ShB because it (debateably with DNC and BRD) were considered the easiest DPS Jobs. As we've gone over in this thread, a lot of people - but not everyone - want to play a Job that's easier to handle. In ShB, that was RDM. Also in ShB, combat raise was a pretty substantial utility.

So, then you have EW where RDM is made harder at the same time as combat raise is devalued and a competitor Job is made easier. Of course, RDM numbers are going to go down given all of that. However, people are still bringing RDM's to content. It's not like 6.2 MCH. The problem stems from it requiring a higher skill cap but having the same damage cap (more or less).

If there is a low skill, medium skill, and high skill option, people are going to tend towards the low skill one. Some people - very driven, competitive type of people that really want to push their limits - will pick up the high skill option, even knowing if they screw up they'll do a lower performance than the low skill option, because they want to push themselves and because they think they can squeeze out higher performance.

People will pick the medium option as well, however, provided it is a balance of the two. The problem with RDM right now is that it is not. It's a medium in skill, but has roughly the same output as SMN even if played optimally. It has extra utility, but that extra utility consists of a partywide mitigation in a tier where every Job is being loaded with partywide mitigations, and a more robust combat raise in a tier (expansion as a whole) that has extensive bodychecks and has severely devalued combat raises.

The problem, as I've said repeatedly, is not SMN's design or tuning. It's RDM's.

RDM does too little damage for the difficulty, and its better combat raise is not a sufficient compensation because of encounters largely negating its value.

[Deo14]

"your bullshit"
"your insistinence on being wrong"
"your underhanded tactics"
"your complaining"
"your inane claims"
"making a clown of yourself"
"cope"
"I don't want to be bombarded with more of your essays"

I'm pretty sure you could go to any culture, say those types of things about people, and find they would take offense. They clearly aren't meant to be flattering. What culture are you from where these things are not negative things to say about a person?

Damn, I'm so mean, wow. Anyways, here are insults from single post of yours:

This is why people on the internet suck:
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You accuse someone of saying something they didn't say.
Prance around about being wrong.
Prance around about lying.
And idiots support you for being wrong and lying.
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Thank god the game itself isn't as bad as the forum community is.
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Also, for the record: This was LITERALLY MY ARGUMENT:
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ALL OF YOU attacking me over this are just PROVING THE INITIAL POINT I MADE CORRECT. You just are so adamant about counter-arguing me at every turn, you didn't bother to realize it.
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You guys REALLY need to stop being dicks for dogpile points.
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Holy angry A-hole, Batman!
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Good god, who peed in your cornflakes? o.O
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You didn't bother to even understand what was being said before responding in angrybird mode.
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Going on an unhinged, insult laden tirade doesn't make someone agree with you. I still don't like GW2 and like FFXIV and do so because, in part, FFXIV has a Trinity system, from the ground up, was built around it, and still uses it. You calling me names and insulting me doesn't make me more likely to enjoy the thing you enjoy that I don't enjoy. And, frankly, it's kind of stupid that you even think it will OR are trying to change someone else's preferences in the first place.
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Next time, don't come out like an angry rooster who sat on a corncob and actually bother reading what people wrote and asking them questions if you're confused instead of launching into an unhinged tirade to prove you're better than someone on the internet.
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I also love how you guys are using any excuse to avoid the point made where that even came up (not you, Sebazy, but the others in the dogpile you joined):
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Indeed, people INSISTING that BLM slidecasts supports, rather than harms, that argument.
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GOD DAMNIT, I outright mentioned this!
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Holy POOPIE you guys are desperate to attack me as a person and try to discredit any thing I say so you can wave it around in the future (never admitting when you're wrong yourselves and despite me never doing this to any of you) any chance you get and to avoid actual topics being discussed as much as possible. RNGeezeus!
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I'm not sure if people are having an issue understanding this or not, though. I do believe it's a strong desire by quite a few people to attack someone they have an irrational dislike of (as some of these people attack me in ALMOST every thread that we both post in, warranted or not), but it could be an overlap in definition.
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The irony - as I said above a couple times - is that they're so zealous to attack me, they don't realize they're proving my point about GCD hardcast cure Healer Jobs being viable - the thing that was the actual topic of discussion before this tangent of "dogpile on Ren" started... <_<

Haven't read rest of your rant in spoiler tag, they were entertaining at first, but it's really getting boring, then I skimmed that RDM and SMN stuff. Very nice to say that people will (did you finally learnt that underlining or making bold text look less stupid that your caps lock?) pick RDM... when this tier SMN has nearly twice as much parses than RDM, and previous ones weren't any better. And there you go blaming current balance, ignoring that RDM was worse SMN since EW launch.

You just keep repeating yourself like a broken record, and as it seems like, me or other people in here cannot fix you.

[EderTheBro]

"Holy POOPIE"

Did he just