Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Im genuinely curious, considering Smn is the most played job, do folks play it cause they like the easiness or play it cause might as well take advantage, kind deal?

I'm leaning toward the latter + its aesthetic & being another book wielding job. I really can't look 'fine' on my nerdy spellcaster glam on either RDM or BLM so it has to be used by SMNs. Then again, the only time I really had any semblance of fun playing the job is in dungeons where I will sprint ahead of the tank to cushion those additional hits & still survive & keeping uptime with the help of Radiant Aegis x2 and their full mobility, enough until the tank can pull all the pack away from me when they settle down. Everywhere else I feel bad enough I don't feel any satisfaction, I've been actively stowing the job in any contents that's not dungeon since 6.05.

I do recognize a friend from another static who currently plays the job because (take this as a grain of salt, it was their commentary from 6.1 period) the job is so braindead easy to play & does not feel like a caster they're going to take an advantage of it while they can (lines up with your 2nd reason). As soon as another more braindead job appears and more powerful than SMN, they will instantly ditch SMN for that hypothetical new job.

[SilversLyu]

SMN is played so much cuz RDM and BLM are harder + less mobile, while SMN does everything better except dps (and even then only BLM is truly ahead), is easy to play, mitigation etc. SMN plays more like a ranged than a caster and it gets abused in the current encounters where you have to jog around the arena frequently.

[Aravell]

That's what is really neat about XIV in general. If you hate a job the way it is presented in the game, you can play another job that you like better.

This only rings true for the DPS role. All healers function almost the same and the only difference for tank is whether you want high or low APM.

[Renathras]

Like I said, you missed the mark. Your attributed viewpoint to the other side is cynical to the maximum.

Okay, this is where I have a problem with people like you. Between here and the Healer forum, you seem to take an unseemly pleasure in attacking my post style or "tone" that you perceive out of tone-less text. Even when I'm trying to be more than fair, you insist that I'm not, meanwhile not being fair yourself.

No, it was not "cynical to the maximum". I was literally laying out the side opposed to mine in the most positive light - that people want to be challenged, that they think hard work is a reward, that they don't want to harm or lord over others and simply see what they want as good and harmless and something everyone can enjoy - what in the name of flying monkey buns is cynical about viewing the opposed side in the most positive light possible?!

And also note, it's not just you - it's addressing all the people on your side of the argument in the most positive way possible. Deo has already shown that it doesn't fit her specifically.

You've said you understand my view, but talk is cheap. I've asked you to present it, and you are refusing to do so.

When someone offers you an olive branch, that's not the time to bite the hand offering it.

/sigh

Your first paragraph comes across as REALLY in bad faith and a horrible, snide, condescending, and aloof tone. I can only hope it wasn't intended that way and you just didn't consider how your wording is giving that impression. The odd thing is, your second and third sentences of your second paragraph are not. It's...a jarring tonal shift.

In any case, if you don't care to understand the other side, you could just say so. I'm not going to continue this exercise when the only replies have been either ignoring it or being...uncouth about it.

This is honestly completely true. MCH and BRD are both much easier than DNC. The difficulty people experience with both those jobs are simply because of the extreme rigidity. Same as RPR.

Agreed, as I said. Weird that ETB is actually agreeing with me for once.

You try again,

No, you first.

I've been treating you in good faith despite you engaging in a witch hunt against me. It's time for you to correct your tone and attitude.

But, I will give you this freebie:

finally answer me why is it fair that one job becomes redundant because of the other job.

It.
Doesn't.

That's the answer. I already answered this, but I'll do it as short and direct here as possible so it can't be missed:

Jobs don't become "redundant" because one does more damage, otherwise every Job but GNB, SGE, BLM, SAM, and MCH wouldn't be played. Nor do Jobs become "redundant" when they're harder and there's an easier option, otherwise every Job but PLD, WHM, RPR, MCH(?), and SMN wouldn't be played.

CLEARLY players are factoring things into their decisions besides "does the most damage" or "is the easiest".

You're the only one acting in bad faith here. You've consistently insisted that someone else who isn't you said something, and when the person proved you were wrong, instead of saying "Oh, I'm sorry. I misinterpreted what you said and I should have asked for clarity instead of jumping on a bandwagon dogpile on you", you instead attacked me for YOUR misunderstanding, insisted YOU WERE STILL RIGHT and that I had to admit and apologize for being wrong about something I wasn't even wrong about, and have used that for days/weeks now to continue your one-man crusade inquisition, all because you can't admit you made a mistake and attacked a person when you should have talked to them like a Human being first.

And you continue to do this, across multiple threads (that's stalking/harassment, btw), even ignoring that in the posts you AREN'T harassing me outright, I'm treating you with good faith and providing arguments and counter points. You continue to goad at me over and over. When you make posts that include goading alongside actual argument, and I respond to the argument, you ignore that to go after whatever response I gave (or didn't) to the goading, proving your entire goal is to harass and annoy me and try to get me to blow up on you, even with me repeatedly turning you down and saying I want no part in your childish feud.

You need to grow up before anyone can believe you're acting in good faith. And the endless - ENDLESS - snark in your posts directed at me isn't helping your case.

Indeed, it's a combination of ridiculous and shocking you're accusing me of trying to irritate YOU when you're the one who's got a self-declared war on me and I'm actually here trying to be even-handed. If you don't want to be "the bad guys", then stop acting in bad faith, stop the snark, stop the egging on, and actually come to the table as an equal instead of on a pedestal.

I've tried to be calm and acomodating, but good GOD you don't make it easy. When you end your personal crusade against me, maybe then you'll realize I'm not the bad guy here and if you actually give compromise a chance, you might find middle ground.

For me, it has the right balance of utility and mobility. I'm bad at timing things on BLM and it has no raise. RDM has more raises than SMN and similar levels of mobility, obviously, but its also a matter of personal preference, and I like SMN's rhythm more.

That's what is really neat about XIV in general. If you hate a job the way it is presented in the game, you can play another job that you like better.

ALL of this.

Ok, where's the DoT based Healer I can play?

Every one of them? There's not a single Healer that doesn't have a DoT based damage rotation.

SMN is played so much cuz RDM and BLM are harder + less mobile, while SMN does everything better except dps (and even then only BLM is truly ahead), is easy to play, mitigation etc. SMN plays more like a ranged than a caster and it gets abused in the current encounters where you have to jog around the arena frequently.

I see this a lot, but it really doesn't in the normal sense.

Of the Ranged Jobs, two are heavily proc based and one has a high APM burst.

SMN has neither of these.

What people mean is "it has few cast time spells", but the rhythm of how it plays isn't like BRD/DNC with all their procs they have to react to, and it's not like MCH with its crazy burst. There isn't actually another Job quite like SMN right now, probably the closest is PLD for the reason that its cadence also has a basic underlying rotation (things that need to happen in a given cycle), but it's also variable (can move around when to use Holy Spirit, etc) and carries party utility in a similar vein.

So it's probably better to say that SMN plays like a Tank type rotation/cadence, not like a Ranged Physical.

This only rings true for the DPS role. All healers function almost the same and the only difference for tank is whether you want high or low APM.

Respectfully, disagree.

Healer healing kits function pretty differently from one another. Even people insisting SGE and SCH play alike, having played both extensively, they really don't, and they feel very distinct, they just have a lot of analogues. AST doesn't play at all like the others. WHM doesn't play like the others. Outside of their nukespam, DoT, Cure 1, Raise, and Medica, they all play differently from each other. The Healers are only similar if you ignore everything but their DPS kit and their basic GCD heals. They're distinct enough that people who heal a lot generally have a preference for one or two over the others. For some, it's pretty cynical, yes (e.g. "I like AST best because it's the only one I don't fall asleep during!"), but for many, it's not at all.

Tanks also play very differently. PLD doesn't play anything like GNB except on paper if you're legally blind and not wearing glasses. DRK plays like WAR in the same sense that MCH plays like DNC, which is if you ignore everything but their core combo rotation.

Moreover, as we're talking about SMN - about the DPS Role - and people saying it has to be changed, it's important to note that the "that only rings true for the DPS role" isn't really a valid response. The DPS role is, what we're talking about!

[Aravell]

In any case, if you don't care to understand the other side, you could just say so. I'm not going to continue this exercise when the only replies have been either ignoring it or being...uncouth about it.

I was wrong about you. I thought you wanted to debate, but you actually don't. When I challenge your ideas, you claim I attack you, this happened last time too. You say you understand what I'm saying, yet you misrepresent what I say. I'm not obligated to represent your side when you don't even deign to represent my side properly. I'm also not Deo, there is no "my side" and "your side". You claim that you agree that everyone is different, yet you're lumping me in with "the other side". I disagree with Deo and Skiros on some of the points they make, I don't agree with them completely, I also agree with some of your points, but I don't fully agree with you either. You're not accepting that there's more than 2 sides to this argument, and that means it's impossible to debate with you.

I never once attacked you, I don't "take pleasure in assaulting you", I even said it's disgusting that people dogpile you, but if you see my challenging your ideals as me attacking you, then fine, see me as your toxic demon, let us never speak again.

[Semirhage]

I was wrong about you. I thought you wanted to debate, but you actually don't. When I challenge your ideas, you claim I attack you, this happened last time too. You say you understand what I'm saying, yet you misrepresent what I say. I'm not obligated to represent your side when you don't even deign to represent my side properly. I'm also not Deo, there is no "my side" and "your side". You claim that you agree that everyone is different, yet you're lumping me in with "the other side". I disagree with Deo and Skiros on some of the points they make, I don't agree with them completely, I also agree with some of your points, but I don't fully agree with you either. You're not accepting that there's more than 2 sides to this argument, and that means it's impossible to debate with you.

I never once attacked you, I don't "take pleasure in assaulting you", I even said it's disgusting that people dogpile you, but if you see my challenging your ideals as me attacking you, then fine, see me as your toxic demon, let us never speak again.

This is standard Renathras. It's why people "dogpile" him. You'll get a wall of text ranting about how much he hates DoTs, dislikes skill ceilings, hates RNG, etc. It's superficially different from the regular toxic casual crew around here, but scratch the surface and you'll find the rhetorical chicanery is the same as the rest of 'em. Always dancing back and forth on that Motte and Bailey line between "I'm a seasoned video game enjoyer and I understand how XYZ works", then swapping over to "Pffffff it's just a game maybe you should touch grass not everyone is interested in spending hours obsessed with numbers and stuff" when called out on it.

It's exhausting; it's always the same set of tactics. Claim something about high level play, then when the logs come out you're "attacking" them instead of, oh, I dunno, providing evidence that they're both incorrect and don't have any experience with what they're talking about.

All of this blabbering about "tooooone" and "being mean" and all of that is smoke. Spend enough time on these forums and you'll start to notice that -all- of that is a bald-faced lie. It's another tactic that toxic casuals use to dismiss your arguments, because they can't provide compelling arguments for the stupidification of the game when it comes down to brass tacks, and part of them realizes how embarrassing it is to state outright what their positions imply: that they neither want to practice their jobs, nor do they want anyone else to have room to improve because it'd make them look bad.

The first one is fine. The second one is the one the eeeeeeeeevil elitists have a problem with.

[Renathras]

I was wrong about you.

No, you weren't. But you are now. And I was wrong about you. I had thought you fair minded - in disagreement, but agreeable enough. All your posts about people's tone and such I thought were genuine, and I thought you'd be open to people pointing out the same to you. Clearly, you are not.

When I challenge your ideas, you claim I attack you, this happened last time too.

What part of calling my posts cynical is "challenging my ideas"?

You can't get away with this kind of thing. You can't pretend you're innocent here when you're saying stuff like that. And even with that, I'm LITERALLY still giving you the benefit of the doubt:

/sigh

Your first paragraph comes across as REALLY in bad faith and a horrible, snide, condescending, and aloof tone. I can only hope it wasn't intended that way and you just didn't consider how your wording is giving that impression. The odd thing is, your second and third sentences of your second paragraph are not. It's...a jarring tonal shift.

Note this is far more benefit of the doubt than you've given me in this thread, or in most others!

And yet you think I'm the one who isn't being fair? After you do all that?

You say you understand what I'm saying, yet you misrepresent what I say.

No, I said I understand what Deo is saying.

Fun fact: Turns out I didn't - I gave her too much credit and assumed good faith where there is none per her reply.

I'm not obligated to represent your side

No, you CAN'T represent my side correctly.

That's the problem.

You can't, and you don't even wish to try.

Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

The entire point of the exercise was to get people thinking about how OTHER people - who they're arguing against - are thinking, to try to get everyone to see how other people are approaching things and see things. That was the entire point of it. That's something I'd think a person like you could get behind.

If you did care and are the kind of person I initially thought you were - you shouldn't have attacked me as cynical when I was being more than fair - to someone else that wasn't even you btw - and then attack me AGAIN for responding negatively - but still willing to give you the benefit of the doubt despite it - to your aggressive and uncalled for attack on me. Even just a "Okay, yeah, I see that. Let's start fresh?" right now would be welcome.

By leading your last post with calling me cynical, and leading this one by saying I don't want to debate and am trying to misrepresent you, all you're doing is poisoning the well of any discussion.

And while I'm willing to offer you an olive branch - ANOTHER olive branch - and say let's try this again, you likely won't want to, because you don't seem to want agreement or cordial relations.

If you do, I do, and I'm here for it.

If you don't, just say so and I'll stop trying to offer olive branches.

.

Oh, and one other thing - I'm not the one saying there are only two positions to hold. Though given that, there's still only one group saying leave SMN alone.

...

This is standard Semirhage - see people dogpiling on someone, join the dogpile, and never meet a dogpile you don't like.

She misquotes people, she calls good faith people trolls, she goes on rants, calls people toxic, accuses everyone but herself of being passive aggressive, never listens to any argument people actually make, and if you aren't in favor of things she is, she'll badmouth you wherever on the forum she runs across you, while attacking your "tone" or "intent", calling you any number of derogatory names, and if you EVER do any of those things to her, she'll say it was uncalled for and that you're a bad person in several different ways.

I mean, just reading that post, you can see how she even paints large swaths of people with one brush. Because that's the kind of person she is.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Im genuinely curious, considering Smn is the most played job, do folks play it cause they like the easiness or play it cause might as well take advantage, kind deal?

Summoner was my main DPS since ARR. I always loved summoners and tend to play them in MMOs. Originally it was a little like the Aion Spiritmaster or EQ Necro (dot mages with physical pets that exist and can take hits or aggro things). Now it feel more like an early-era Final Fantasy Summoner.

I love current Summoner a lot, and am levelling Black Mage (84 now) which I also love a lot. I'll probably play both equally depending on my mood.

I love Summoner utility as someone who loves having a support-aspect to my role. But if I'm not in the mood for that BLM is satisfying to watch things blow up as I refuse to move from my Lay Lines and take needless damage lol.

[Aravell]

Reply

But you are essentially saying there's only 2 positions to hold because you're lumping me in with "the other side" even though I've clearly stated my position. I called you cynical because you said that we think every job needs to be like BLM, calling you cynical isn't an insult, it's a statement, you can take it or leave it. You have a very vague definition of what constitutes an insult and that makes it very exhausting to talk to you, I can't even challenge your argument without picking my words carefully because you might see it as an insult.

You seem to think that I should represent your argument for understanding reasons, but I fundamentally disagree with your position, thus I cannot represent it correctly. I tried once in another thread when you and Ty were clashing, but you said I wasn't correct, so I'm not going to try again.

My entire problem with your post is that when I clarified my position, you doubled-down and said that you were right in what you said, when you were not. I corrected you and then you said I was wrong. What does that mean? The moment you said "people like you", you're already lumping me in with one large blob of people that you think are attacking you, after that, there's no going back.

You claimed you offered me an olive branch, yeah, right after you threw the branch in my face in our first conversation when you claimed I was attacking you because I decided to take Roe's advice. I still tried to find common ground with you after that, but you simply refuse to understand my position. So you're not the only one that feels like the other side isn't even trying to understand your position. We probably both just got heated in the moment, I'll just forget this whole thing happened if we want to be civil with each other again, I'm willing, are you?

[Silver-Strider]

Summoner was my main DPS since ARR. I always loved summoners and tend to play them in MMOs. Originally it was a little like the Aion Spiritmaster or EQ Necro (dot mages with physical pets that exist and can take hits or aggro things). Now it feel more like an early-era Final Fantasy Summoner.

I love current Summoner a lot, and am levelling Black Mage (84 now) which I also love a lot. I'll probably play both equally depending on my mood.

I love Summoner utility as someone who loves having a support-aspect to my role. But if I'm not in the mood for that BLM is satisfying to watch things blow up as I refuse to move from my Lay Lines and take needless damage lol.

My friend is on the opposite end of the spectrum.
He started during HW but he thoroughly enjoyed SMN and mained the job up until EW. When they first announced the EW changes and showed the Primals, he was ecstatic and genuinely looked forward to it.
It took 2 months before he became bored of the job, which is crazy to me because in any game that we played together in, he would always, ALWAYS, pick the Summoner type job. That was his safe zone. So to see him lose interest in his favorite archetype was very disheartening to say the least.