Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management

[EderTheBro]

What a nice streak of derailing the whole point of your whole slidecasting argument. What's the counter at, octuple down?


Now this is good signature material. Gaius don't steal this one from me, you already stole my "server side reshader".


Whole point is that if those two things are not at least somewhat balanced, then SMN will always be preffered to RDM, because you simply get more for less effort. And if you want RDM to deal more damage, SMN will be getting out of content. Feels like me and others are just repeating ourselves, and others don't listen and don't even give real counter-arguments.

Holy moly one particular Lalafell bb just can't help themselves!!! Every time he posts we're blessed with the rains of Africa

[Renathras]

Feels like me and others are just repeating ourselves, and others don't listen and don't even give real counter-arguments.

Good gosh, that's my line! I say the same thing all the time and it's like you don't listen and don't give real counter-arguments.

We're talking past each other. You refuse to see a different perspective than your own, and my attempts at meeting in the middle are brushed off by you ad unfair or incomplete. Meanwhile, I'm sure you think "low skill floor, you just can't clear hard content because you don't deserve to" is a "middle" of sorts, so this is probably just as frustrating to you as it is to me. >_<

It's just frustrating to everyone because we're all stuck in this same problem.

For my part, I think I do understand your perspective, I just disagree with it. The only way to be sure would be to put it into words and say "Is this what you think?". "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" and all that. But that's not a bad start - if I do understand correctly, and disagree, there is room to find some common ground.

On the other hand, I don't think you understand the perspective of the people you oppose. You obviously disagree with them, but I don't think you understand what it is they want or why. Your repeated characterization seems to suggest that.

But let's test this, it might be a useful exercise for everyone:

In your own words, attempt to describe what you think the other side wants and feels on the topic. Let's see if we can reach an understanding by first understanding each other.

.

What I think you want/feel:

NOTE: This is written in, and intended to be read in, a neutral tone. There's no judgement passed, nor sarcasm or derision intended. This is , on the positive side, what I think your argument is based around:

I think what you guys want, if your words are accurate representation, is to have Jobs where you can both master them at a high level and push yourselves, and where that high level of mastery is visible in output performance. Not minor or easy to miss, but clearly noticeable and impactful, making encounters shorter and easier in a way that everyone can tell is different than doing them "normally" would be (e.g. with lower mastery levels). You also want achieving victory in difficult content to have some prestige to it, also reflecting the mastery that you have practiced and the skill you have to execute both your encounter and rotation at a consistently high level to clear it. That people who do not have that level of skill should be encouraged by both the content and others to grow and improve in order to clear it, and that those who refuse should just not be able to, and simply be content not doing any content passed the casual offerings like MSQ until such time as they are motivated to improve appropriately. That it is a game, but part of games is improving oneself and seeing visible results of that improvement, of rising to and overcoming challenges.

The skill ceiling needs to be high so you can continually push yourself to attain and maintain this level, where there's always room for growth, and you feel like you should be rewarded for that higher level of competence and capability, as well as continuing to operate and improve at that level and beyond it as Job changes and new encounters come with time. Finally, you want this to be on every Job in the game, because you like various, but specific, class fantasies and aesthetics, and you want those specific ones while also achieving your goal and fulfillment through that level of dedication and mastery you want it to require of you. That you think others are like you, and even though you may not like a Job's aesthetic, they may, so all Jobs, without exception, need this design. You recognize not everyone is as skilled, but you anticipate everyone who applies effort can reach at least a moderate level, and encounters should be designed around that...but that the true mastery should be noticeable above and beyond that, rewarding those who push themselves further. And that by there being no "easy" Jobs and encounters, everyone who truly deserves it can - and will - improve to the level you think is competence, being able to clear most content with time and as they are deserving of doing so.

And those who don't? Well, they refuse to do so, even though they are truly capable if they wanted to - they can, they just don't want to, and are undeserving, and that's fine. They have Island Sanctuary or other content to do that doesn't require it, or they could always try finding a different game to play that is more suited to their engagement level. That is, you don't hate or look down on these people, per se, you just think if they want to do the content, they have it within themselves to rise and do it on any of the high skill ceiling Jobs. If they aren't doing it, then maybe they aren't really motivated to do the content, or it's not really a big priority to them, as it if was, surely they would rise to the challenge, as surely they're capable of doing so, even if every Job was like BLM or DRG or whatever. So if they don't, they aren't really missing out, since clearly it isn't content that they really want to engage in anyway, so no one's hurt by this arrangement, because those people aren't doing hard content anyway, right?

That sound about right?

.

What a nice streak of derailing the whole point of your whole slidecasting argument. What's the counter at, octuple down?

No, I'm not playing your childish feud. I explained it all to you, you rejected the explanation because you just want me to be wrong because you don't like my positions on other topics and so you will insist to your dying breath I'm wrong about everything, it doesn't matter how wrong you have to be to hold that view. I'm done dealing with all the trolls here, and that's troll behavior. Get over it - or don't - I'm going to continue not engaging you on this topic because I gave you a good faith effort and you spit in my face and have been bad faith over the entire thing. The grand irony being, it wasn't even a conversation that involved you to begin with, and you even admitted that my overall position was correct, the wording just confused you and instead of asking for clarification, you jumped on the hate train.

No, I'm done with this petty forum troll clique nonsense.

[QUOTE=Deo14;6279422]Now this is good signature material. Gaius don't steal this one from me, you already stole my "server side reshader".[/QUOTE}

I guess. Expose to the world that you don't know what common use terms mean. Have fun with that. Btw, putting quotes of people in your sig to mock them is yet more petty childishness and PROBABLY also against the TOS.

Whole point is that if those two things are not at least somewhat balanced, then SMN will always be preffered to RDM, because you simply get more for less effort.

If your enjoyment of the game comes from putting in more effort, then RDM would be preferred by you over SMN. If SMNis preferred, it's because what your goal is in the game is the path of least resistance, not mastering a difficult Job's playstyle.

And if you want RDM to deal more damage, SMN will be getting out of content.

Nope, that's the point and what you're not getting. BLM does more damage than SMN and RDM. Yet SMN and RDM haven't been pushed out of content. Why not?

BLM clearly does more damage than they do. By your comments, that means no one should be playing RDMs or SMNs because BLM does more damage.

...but also based on your comments, no one should be playing BLM, because it's harder.

Which is it?

Clearly, the answer is that there are different players with different objectives who want something different out of a Job. People who weigh the cost-benefit of the two differently. And there may be some optimum points - like people are willing to do BLM's harder rotation because doing it right gives ENOUGH more damage to make it worth it, but if it only did the same as SMN, no one would play BLM. But the game is balanced around SMN's lower damage, most people aren't doing BLM perfectly anyway so this is still somewhat balanced, and SMN has some extra party utility to make up for the lower damage - the result being both Jobs are still competitive with each other.

Some want to master a Job and will push to do so, no matter how difficult, and the greater damage of BLM matches their greater effort in a way they find acceptable. On the other hand, there are some people that find SMN's damage sufficient and its plystyle matches their needs for complexity and mastery, as they're able to give a consistent performance at the required level which they could not on BLM, and so they find the trade-off acceptable. BLM's output is variable and SMN's is consistent, leading people to pick SMN who value consistency and BLM for those who value the high reward and can manage the high risk.

So: Why can't this work with RDM? A middle difficulty for a middle reward, but with middle variance so that doing it poorly is worse than doing SMN poorly, but doing it better is better than doing SMN better? BLM already does this, and it works. You could say less people play BLM (this actually isn't true in all encounters, but let's ignore that for the time being), but clearly you aren't arguing to lower BLM's skill cap "or it will be left off".

RDM's problem isn't that it's harder than SMN, it's that it's harder than SMN but does around the same damage. We can see this because BLM is harder than SMN, too, but actually does damage commensurate to its difficulty, but its difficulty is also high enough that people uncertain they can do it consistently - that is, who don't want to worry about that high variability and that if they play it poorly know they'll do less damage than they would on SMN - have SMN to fall back on instead if they feel like it. The system works.

Now, you might again note that not many people play BLM, but that's not a balance issue, that's because not as many people value high skill ceiling as people value consistency. In almost all polls of Humans, more people are risk averse than risk-taking, and BLM is a bit of a gamble. The issue there comes down to "apparently the people don't all want a high skill ceiling Job".

And that's okay. BLM should still be there - I believe - for those who do. But it does pretty hard counter your argument that all Jobs should have a higher skill ceiling.

Both RPR and DNC have a lower barrier to entry compared to other jobs in their field, yet both have a surprising amount of skill expression. There are already player perceived “easy jobs” in all dps fields. But SMN continues to be the one without skill expression

I'm sorry, but what? This may be an individual preference thing, but...

...DNC is the hardest of the Ranged Jobs to me. It's got massive amounts of procs and active adaptations, and there's no rotation or routine to get into. It's the single hardest of the Ranged Jobs to play at a high level, imo, because of it. Though BRD isn't much better. Other than the latency thing with Wildfire and Hypercharge BS, MCH is the easiest Job. You have a simple rotation, hit things on CD, the burst is pretty straightforward, and the Job's rotation is consistent and static.

And RPR I haven't played with too much, but reading it, it doesn't seem that easy. From playing around with NIN, it seems a lot easier to me. RPR may have a lower skill floor, but there seem to be more decision points. Then again...I don't really find ANY of the Melee particularly easy to get into.

I haven't messed with it much, but DRG seems easier as well - like MCH, the rotation's consistent and reliable, it doesn't change up and require active reevaluation of priorities.

I think this just goes back to "Individual people think and perceive things differently". For example, DNC is easy if you are great at reacting to procs, but might be the hardest Job in the game to you if you're a person who likes rigid "same every time" rotations like DRG's.

the summoner has a strong visual identity and beautiful spells since the rework but in late game because below level 72 except dreadwyrm trance/bahamut the animations are all the same ruin spell without visual interest,
but on the other hand his spell rotation is totally tasteless and uninspired.

I do agree that the lower level elemental Ruin spells should do at least SOMETHING different. Like...could they not be bothered to make them Red/Yellow/Green, at least?

[Deo14]

Good gosh, that's my line! I say the same thing all the time and it's like you don't listen and don't give real counter-arguments.

We're talking past each other. You refuse to see a different perspective than your own, and my attempts at meeting in the middle are brushed off by you ad unfair or incomplete. Meanwhile, I'm sure you think "low skill floor, you just can't clear hard content because you don't deserve to" is a "middle" of sorts, so this is probably just as frustrating to you as it is to me. >_<

So what was you argument on "how is it fair that one job becomes redundant because other job"? Maybe you already said it, but it's hard to keep track of your essays.

It's just frustrating to everyone because we're all stuck in this same problem.

For my part, I think I do understand your perspective, I just disagree with it. The only way to be sure would be to put it into words and say "Is this what you think?". "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" and all that. But that's not a bad start - if I do understand correctly, and disagree, there is room to find some common ground.

On the other hand, I don't think you understand the perspective of the people you oppose. You obviously disagree with them, but I don't think you understand what it is they want or why. Your repeated characterization seems to suggest that.

Yes, I do understand POV of people who want to keep SMN's skill expression same - they simply want to put less effort and deal same damage because they're lazy crybabies. If they actually like SMN, they won't oppose adding more stuff to it which will elevate SMN's skill ceiling, because that will mean there will be more stuff they can learn about their job. People in this thread were nice about wording this at the start, but it boils down to the self-entitled people who want their cake and eat it too. You put in less effort, you deserve less, if you don't meet some minimal requirements, you should not clear harder content, simple as that. Again, this does not affect people who actually like SMN, this is focused mainly on people who play SMN specifically because it's the path of least resistance.

No, I'm not playing your childish feud. I explained it all to you, you rejected the explanation because you just want me to be wrong because you don't like my positions on other topics and so you will insist to your dying breath I'm wrong about everything, it doesn't matter how wrong you have to be to hold that view. I'm done dealing with all the trolls here, and that's troll behavior. Get over it - or don't - I'm going to continue not engaging you on this topic because I gave you a good faith effort and you spit in my face and have been bad faith over the entire thing. The grand irony being, it wasn't even a conversation that involved you to begin with, and you even admitted that my overall position was correct, the wording just confused you and instead of asking for clarification, you jumped on the hate train.

No, I'm done with this petty forum troll clique nonsense.

"I'm going to continue not engaging" he says, as he writes yet another paragraph about that. If you want to think that me calling you out on your BS is spitting in your face, then go ahead.

You had conflicting/incorrect info in your slidecasting argument or whatever it was, you got ratio'd by at least 5+ people (if you put any value into updoots) because it was factually incorrect, and instead of correcting yourself, you kept doubling down and eventually started calling others names because they were "dog pilling" on you. No shit we were, when you kept insisting and kept trying any kind of mental gymnastics so you seem right. But hey, why would I need to keep talking about that, everyone can just check that.

I guess. Expose to the world that you don't know what common use terms mean. Have fun with that. Btw, putting quotes of people in your sig to mock them is yet more petty childishness and PROBABLY also against the TOS.

Saying that definition of casuals is that they don't minmax is just factually incorrect. Defining casuals by their playtime is most accurate definition, but other factors should be considered too, of course. But minmaxing is 100% not a main factor.

Here you go, tell me what's more likely to be accepted as definition

Why do you think my signature is mockery? It presents quotes as-is. I don't tell people to "look at them and laugh" as Gauis did, I present quotes and nothing more, with link to original if people want more context. It's up to the eye of beholder to make their own image. If you perceive it as a mockery, than it seems that you acknowledge how dumb those quotes are.

If your enjoyment of the game comes from putting in more effort, then RDM would be preferred by you over SMN. If SMNis preferred, it's because what your goal is in the game is the path of least resistance, not mastering a difficult Job's playstyle.

I've explained this like 3 times already. Just check ShB raid statistics and EW statistics. RDM was slightly more popular than SMN, now SMN has like 70% more parses than RDM in last tier.

Nope, that's the point and what you're not getting. BLM does more damage than SMN and RDM. Yet SMN and RDM haven't been pushed out of content. Why not?

BLM clearly does more damage than they do. By your comments, that means no one should be playing RDMs or SMNs because BLM does more damage.

Because BLM is league on their own. It would make perfect sense to only allow BLM to join as caster, but BLM is perceived as so hard, that players are afraid of it. In other words, if PF allowed only BLM to join, it would take ages to find one, but that's not only problem. Even then, you're in no way guaranteed that player would live up to the BLM's name. BLM has a lot of skill expression, so party can choose to look for BLM, which might be good, might be bad, or just pick SMN/RDM, which will have more predictable damage. Bad BLM will deal just slightly more damage than SMN, and very bad BLM will be even worse than worst SMN, so in the end, letting people decide which caster they want to play is best solution. But then again, I don't play BLM, so there might be someone else who's more educated who could explain this phenomenom.

[Renathras]

Yes, I do understand POV of people who want to keep SMN's skill expression same - they simply want to put less effort and deal same damage because they're lazy crybabies.

Wrong answer, McFly.

Try again.

EDIT:

Also, it appears I was wrong in my assessment of your position. My fair and even assessment was entirely inaccurate and wrong, and I apologize for ascribing honorable and well thought out notions to you. I will not do so again.

I think what you guys want, if your words are accurate representation, is to have Jobs where you can both master them at a high level and push yourselves, and where that high level of mastery is visible in output performance. Not minor or easy to miss, but clearly noticeable and impactful, making encounters shorter and easier in a way that everyone can tell is different than doing them "normally" would be (e.g. with lower mastery levels). You also want achieving victory in difficult content to have some prestige to it, also reflecting the mastery that you have practiced and the skill you have to execute both your encounter and rotation at a consistently high level to clear it. That people who do not have that level of skill should be encouraged by both the content and others to grow and improve in order to clear it, and that those who refuse should just not be able to, and simply be content not doing any content passed the casual offerings like MSQ until such time as they are motivated to improve appropriately. That it is a game, but part of games is improving oneself and seeing visible results of that improvement, of rising to and overcoming challenges.

The skill ceiling needs to be high so you can continually push yourself to attain and maintain this level, where there's always room for growth, and you feel like you should be rewarded for that higher level of competence and capability, as well as continuing to operate and improve at that level and beyond it as Job changes and new encounters come with time. Finally, you want this to be on every Job in the game, because you like various, but specific, class fantasies and aesthetics, and you want those specific ones while also achieving your goal and fulfillment through that level of dedication and mastery you want it to require of you. That you think others are like you, and even though you may not like a Job's aesthetic, they may, so all Jobs, without exception, need this design. You recognize not everyone is as skilled, but you anticipate everyone who applies effort can reach at least a moderate level, and encounters should be designed around that...but that the true mastery should be noticeable above and beyond that, rewarding those who push themselves further. And that by there being no "easy" Jobs and encounters, everyone who truly deserves it can - and will - improve to the level you think is competence, being able to clear most content with time and as they are deserving of doing so.

And those who don't? Well, they refuse to do so, even though they are truly capable if they wanted to - they can, they just don't want to, and are undeserving, and that's fine. They have Island Sanctuary or other content to do that doesn't require it, or they could always try finding a different game to play that is more suited to their engagement level. That is, you don't hate or look down on these people, per se, you just think if they want to do the content, they have it within themselves to rise and do it on any of the high skill ceiling Jobs. If they aren't doing it, then maybe they aren't really motivated to do the content, or it's not really a big priority to them, as it if was, surely they would rise to the challenge, as surely they're capable of doing so, even if every Job was like BLM or DRG or whatever. So if they don't, they aren't really missing out, since clearly it isn't content that they really want to engage in anyway, so no one's hurt by this arrangement, because those people aren't doing hard content anyway, right?

...is, for the record, apparently completely wrong.

I apologize to anyone who read that and thought that the people arguing against SMN were or are doing so in good faith, as apparently, they are not. Well, at least one of them + the (6) likes (at the time of this post) is not.

[Aravell]

I think what you guys want

I speak only for myself, but you're off the mark here.

Yes, I want job mastery to have a visible difference, it may not seem fair to some, but the difference needs to exist, there should be an incentive to master a job. I don't think there's any prestige in clearing savage or ultimates, I clear them because I want a challenge. I firmly believe that if anyone wants the clear as well, they should be able to rise to the challenge that comes with it, whether that be job difficulty, encounter difficulty or both together. Skill improvement is a part of games, whether you like it or not, people who play more are usually better than those who don't.

I think every job does need a skill ceiling, but I don't think they all need to be a high one. I would rather see a spread of moderate to high skill ceilings, I always advocate for the design of low floor, moderate/high ceiling. I don't believe it's good design to have a job that someone can pick up and master in an hour. We have 19 jobs in this game, there's no good reason why we need to make it so anybody can master all of them.

Yes, people who don't want to improve and at least be decent with a job should have no business in savage or above, this may seem unfair, but it should be required. If this line of thinking is toxic to you, then so be it.

[Ivtrix]

I'm sorry, but what? This may be an individual preference thing, but...

...DNC is the hardest of the Ranged Jobs to me. It's got massive amounts of procs and active adaptations, and there's no rotation or routine to get into. It's the single hardest of the Ranged Jobs to play at a high level, imo, because of it. Though BRD isn't much better. Other than the latency thing with Wildfire and Hypercharge BS, MCH is the easiest Job. You have a simple rotation, hit things on CD, the burst is pretty straightforward, and the Job's rotation is consistent and static.

And RPR I haven't played with too much, but reading it, it doesn't seem that easy. From playing around with NIN, it seems a lot easier to me. RPR may have a lower skill floor, but there seem to be more decision points. Then again...I don't really find ANY of the Melee particularly easy to get into.

I haven't messed with it much, but DRG seems easier as well - like MCH, the rotation's consistent and reliable, it doesn't change up and require active reevaluation of priorities.

I think this just goes back to "Individual people think and perceive things differently". For example, DNC is easy if you are great at reacting to procs, but might be the hardest Job in the game to you if you're a person who likes rigid "same every time" rotations like DRG's.

Lol.

Using the same arguing point, it’s clear that DNC is the go to physical job going by the level of engagement at the current savage parses. I don’t think it’s a controversial statement to say that DNC is far and away the easiest of the physical range jobs and if you looked up anywhere people asked for the easiest jobs to play, that DNC will command a majority of the physical ranged catagory.

I think it’s just you.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Yes, people who don't want to improve and at least be decent with a job should have no business in savage or above, this may seem unfair, but it should be required. If this line of thinking is toxic to you, then so be it.

This part sums up pretty much how I feel. To which, the discussion reminds me of an older quote from the past:

[...]Let's use the theme park mmo moniker for a moment: you, as someone who goes to the theme park, may enjoy simply wandering the park. You might enjoy stopping to sit at a bench to people watch with some candy or food, and you may enjoy going on the merry-go-round, the ferris wheel, or would enjoy a slow ride that's meant to give you a certain vantage on the park (e.g. the Yoshi's Island ride at Nintendo Land), but avoid roller coasters and water-related rides, or virtual reality, bumper cars, etc.. No one's going to tell you that you're wrong for enjoying yourself the way you want and, on the off-chance that they do (and that you're not doing something actually illegal or indecent), they would be the assholes. But on the flipside, other people do enjoy roller coasters, water rides, virtual reality, and/or bumper cars, so those people will go on those rides. If you were to try to stop other people from going on those rides just because you don't like them, then you would be the asshole.

Even if you go with friends to a theme park, there will be times where said friends will want to go on a ride and you don't want to; if they do go, and you don't go, that's not the end of the world. They enjoy the ride, you can do something in the meantime, or just wait and watch, and then you meet back up, tease the friend who threw up, continue through the park, and life goes on.

It's the same idea here: you can go do whatever you want, yes, but if you want to play in certain kinds of content because you want to play a certain way, then you simply don't go to the content that demands you play in the way you don't like to. The opportunity cost is that you don't go to that portion of content. Curiosity can lead you to trying the content, but, if it's not to your taste and you really don't enjoy playing that way, then it's not for you and that's okay. You just have to remember that there are people out there who like the same game, but like to play the other content and play in such a way that the game was designed but not necessarily to your taste, and that's okay also[...]

[Catwho]

Having watched the FFXVI combat in the Live Letter, summoner's changes actually make a whole lot more sense now.

[grinkdaboy]

dragoon doesn't have one anymore either

[Renathras]

I speak only for myself, but you're off the mark here.

That's fair, though it's pretty close to what I said, isn't it?

Visible difference, incentive to master, to get a clear people should rise to the challenge, skill improvement being part of games, and that people who "don't want" to improve (since you assume in that statement everyone has the capacity) shouldn't get to clear content...I said all those things, did I not? It seems the only point that I mentioned that doesn't fit your view point is the prestige of clearing content, but the rest...was pretty accurate, wasn't it?

I should also note that no one can master all 19 Jobs in the game in an hour. I'm not even sure they could master 1 in that timeframe (SMN and PLD probably being the easiest). And as for judging/toxic: The purpose here and now is understanding, not judgement.

Now, care to try your hand at this mutual understanding exercise? I expect you can better articulate - maybe - the views of the other side than Deo.

EDIT:

Lol.

Oh, to play at a base level DNC is absolutely easier.

BLM is absolutely easier to play than anything in the game if you just press Blizzard 3 til your MP is full then Fire 3 until it's empty. Likewise, RDM just casting Jolt-Thunder-Jolt-Aero and using their burst combo as soon as they get 50/50. The main difference is DNC's gap between floor and ceiling is lower/narrower than on BLM or RDM, so not playing DNC at 100% doesn't matter as much. And if you have a decent team, you buffing their damage allows their skill to carry you better - Jobs like BLM are selfish and can't rely on that, and Jobs with less support like RDM can't, either. If you ignore or haphazardly spend your procs on DNC, and mess up your step input (which has no real failure condition since you can just press the correct button during Simon Says and the wrong button doesn't do anything other than waste a little time on input), you're still going to do more damage than an "Ice Mage". DNC's skill floor of "vaguely competent/good enough" is absolutely more accessible, to be sure. Though MCH is pretty close to that with "1-2-3, use other things on CD" level of entry play. It just can't paper over non-optimal performance as well with a good party doing the damage for them.