Your Opinion on the Current State of Job Identity/Balance in 6.4?

[Raikai]

Hey now. We can use 20|40 recast times, too!

2 patch notes later...
<ability name> recast time was changed from 40s to 30s to properly align with the 2 min marks.

[Deo14]

I would say also it's the 'gate offender', because there's no way to make jobs more interesting beyond their obligatory job gimmick if it remains intact.

Bet if it lingers through 7.0, the job recipe being:

What gauge gimmick though? Most of them don't even qualify as that, it's just building gauge and using it on one skill or it's AoE version. Then they can have fluff like free charges of that skill and whatever, but it's mostly identical.

That includes WAR, DRK, SCH, NIN, SAM (to be fair, you use Kenki for gap closer and for disengage), RPR is all about these bland gauges, MCH and I probably missed some. None of these have any real gimmick or mechanic behind it, you just build gauge and spend it on one skill. If your meme about 7.0 would become true, it could end up being an upgrade. But I doubt they will not double down on 2min meta, because not only it has made game terrible for players, but it also made it bad for developers to balance all the outstanding variance and other side effects.

[Raikai]

What gauge gimmick though? Most of them don't even qualify as that, it's just building gauge and using it on one skill or it's AoE version. Then they can have fluff like free charges of that skill and whatever, but it's mostly identical.

That includes WAR, DRK, SCH, NIN, SAM (to be fair, you use Kenki for gap closer and for disengage), RPR is all about these bland gauges, MCH and I probably missed some. None of these have any real gimmick or mechanic behind it, you just build gauge and spend it on one skill. If your meme about 7.0 would become true, it could end up being an upgrade. But I doubt they will not double down on 2min meta, because not only it has made game terrible for players, but it also made it bad for developers to balance all the outstanding variance and other side effects.

When I mean 'gimmick', is mostly what you describe: something that looks fancy and intricate, but executes a really simple concept - like some build/spenders that give a false visual cue of depth (RPR, MCH, SCH). I think the only jobs with actual tricks behind their obligatory gimmick are AST, NIN, DNC and maybe RDM, because there's a certain player skill required through the management of that.

[dspguy]

For the average player, job identity is summed up as follows:

- Tank that a healer doesn't need to pay much attention to
- Other tanks
- Healer with shields
- Other healers
- DPS that can raise
- DPS that tank has to actually care about placement to help melee DPS
- Other DPS

[Renathras]

The heck does any of this have to do with what you quoted?

Oh, it's the nexted quote thing. Fixed it in the post now. I was agreeing with you.

Specifically this part:

we should just return to SB times of content design

My post was talking about how SB wasn't really the best. It was good for SCH after 4.1, and it was decent for AST though like you say some things were weird. But it was a horrible time to be a WHM. ShB and EW have been far better for WHM other than 6.0-6.1 specifically due to their MP issues being hurt by the Thin Air nerf but Misery not being damage neutral until 6.1 to make up for that (~1600 MP a minute of pseudo-regen by not having to spend on Glares)

In short, I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing.

2 patch notes later...
<ability name> recast time was changed from 40s to 30s to properly align with the 2 min marks.

The sad thing is, I could see this happening.

...

/yawn

No.

While there is a part of me that wants to counter and contest and debunk you point by point...I already did that, and it did nothing. So I won't continue feeding you.

I already told you, if you want to have an immature feud, you'll be having it with yourself.

What gauge gimmick though? Most of them don't even qualify as that, it's just building gauge and using it on one skill or it's AoE version. Then they can have fluff like free charges of that skill and whatever, but it's mostly identical.

That includes WAR, DRK, SCH, NIN, SAM (to be fair, you use Kenki for gap closer and for disengage), RPR is all about these bland gauges, MCH and I probably missed some. None of these have any real gimmick or mechanic behind it, you just build gauge and spend it on one skill. If your meme about 7.0 would become true, it could end up being an upgrade. But I doubt they will not double down on 2min meta, because not only it has made game terrible for players, but it also made it bad for developers to balance all the outstanding variance and other side effects.

Wait, for SCH, are you talking Aetherflow or Gaerie Gauge? Because Faerie Gauge is pointless and should just be removed at this point (Aetherpact could just be a Sotera-like thing that boosts Eos' healing potency for a bit or a CD that puts a HoT on a specific target), but Aetherflow is pretty useful and has several options to use it with, as well as Recitation allowing some more flexibility there and Dissipation, despite being a really crappy skill that needs a total rework, also having something to do with it.

If you mean Faerie Gauge, though, I 100% agree. They should have left Fey Blessing on the Faerie Gauge and just removed the CD. 30 Gauge for a (pretty small, honestly) AOE heal is completely fair, especially since it's more often that I want to hit a modest AOE heal than it is that I want to hit a channeled modest heal on a single target that also locks me out of my other heals, including my...modest AOE heals.

[Deo14]

When I mean 'gimmick', is mostly what you describe: something that looks fancy and intricate, but executes a really simple concept - like some build/spenders that give a false visual cue of depth (RPR, MCH, SCH). I think the only jobs with actual tricks behind their obligatory gimmick are AST, NIN, DNC and maybe RDM, because there's a certain player skill required through the management of that.

Alright, I was imagining gimmick that looks little more intricate, because most of current gauges are simple and look simple at the same time. Except maybe for BLM and SMN, those look complicated while they're not.

/yawn

No.

While there is a part of me that wants to counter and contest and debunk you point by point...I already did that, and it did nothing. So I won't continue feeding you.

I already told you, if you want to have an immature feud, you'll be having it with yourself.

But you just fed me. You really like me after all, don't you? And you did say that you'll keep talking to me and that you won't in same comment. But now you did respond to me, so we will continue? If you stop now, that would be even more confusing, since you already responded. Well, whatever, you're already yawning, and seems that you're from NA, so you should be in bed hours ago! Good night.

Wait, for SCH, are you talking Aetherflow or Gaerie Gauge?

Yes, I meant faerie gauge, gauge that is used only for 1 skill might as well be removed and replaced with some CD instead.

[Renathras]

Yes, I meant faerie gauge, gauge that is used only for 1 skill might as well be removed and replaced with some CD instead.

Agree with this. Others I can think of offhand:

PLD: Shelltron and Intervention could be a 2 charge system where they share the charges (game code works fine for this, like BRD's shared single target/AOE oGCDs) and with a 25 or 30 sec CD. Would have the same general effect as Oath Gage (you get somewhere in the vicinity of 2.4 sets of 50/120 gauge per minute, which equates to 50 per 25 seconds) does now without the gauge. The gauge is effectively meaningless. In theory it could be used to control Cover and prevent overuse of Cover...except Cover already has its own 120 sec CD and has been a bit nerfed from its original version (still can do cheese with it, but you can do that with or without a gauge cost), so it just reverting to a 120 sec CD with no gauge association wouldn't be an issue. If they were DESPERATE to keep that, they could just make Cover burn one of the shared charges for...reasons.

PLD's, in particular, is stupid like this because it's designed to generate at a set rate (it works on auto-attacks, not using other buttons or completing combos like WAR or GNB's, for example), with the only slowdown being if you have to be out of melee. But this actually works badly, since it means PLD is the only Tank whose short mitigation does not recharge during downtime when there's no targetable enemy, and it would actually be an improvement to either have the gauge just generate per time/every so many seconds OR do the two charge system, since one of the things the Tanks are supposed to be vaguely uniform on IS the availability of their defensives.

[Deo14]

PLD: Shelltron and Intervention could be a 2 charge system where they share the charges (game code works fine for this, like BRD's shared single target/AOE oGCDs) and with a 25 or 30 sec CD. Would have the same general effect as Oath Gage (you get somewhere in the vicinity of 2.4 sets of 50/120 gauge per minute, which equates to 50 per 25 seconds) does now without the gauge. The gauge is effectively meaningless. In theory it could be used to control Cover and prevent overuse of Cover...except Cover already has its own 120 sec CD and has been a bit nerfed from its original version (still can do cheese with it, but you can do that with or without a gauge cost), so it just reverting to a 120 sec CD with no gauge association wouldn't be an issue. If they were DESPERATE to keep that, they could just make Cover burn one of the shared charges for...reasons.

PLD's, in particular, is stupid like this because it's designed to generate at a set rate (it works on auto-attacks, not using other buttons or completing combos like WAR or GNB's, for example), with the only slowdown being if you have to be out of melee. But this actually works badly, since it means PLD is the only Tank whose short mitigation does not recharge during downtime when there's no targetable enemy, and it would actually be an improvement to either have the gauge just generate per time/every so many seconds OR do the two charge system, since one of the things the Tanks are supposed to be vaguely uniform on IS the availability of their defensives.

I kinda prefer Oath over just 2 stacks. Right now, you can double weave Intervention and Sheltron in the same window. If those skills were merged, you couldn't do that, because skills go on this 1s CD before you can use another charge. If those 2 skills are split as they are now, it makes more sense to tie them to gauge, than to make some weird shared stack system. Also, you can bet that the moment it goes into stack system, other tanks will demand their short CDs to have 2 stacks too.

Cover should be on 120CD as it is now, but without Oath cost and work as PvP cover, where you fly to your target if you're out of range. It's already situational, and if you need it, you're usually either out of range or don't have Oath. Also, being able to prematurely cancel it would be nice.

Best part about PLD's shenanigans with generating Oath from melee auto attack is that, according to SE's own words, PLD has advantage of range because of magic phase (do you even call it magic phase after 6.3 rework?), which somehow justifies lower damage. So yes, you have advantage of range, but also disadvantage because of that. It's really weird how those two philosophies clash together.

[GoatOfWar]

It's kind of hillarious that the tankiest tank with the best invuln and partywide is now also the highest dps.
They should give dark knights a new job quest that rewards them the warrior jobstone.

[Hanayumi]

Unfortunately, just dont see SE changing jobs back at this point. Think at best they could balance things so much that they can slap some entirely new system to jobs, tree, new job tier, skill augmentation, who knows, but yeah... this is likely not going change...