Your Opinion on the Current State of Job Identity/Balance in 6.4?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Yes or no answers, please[...]

1) Yes, we play the same FFXIV

2 and 3) Enjoy my half-a$$ed attempt with MSpaint (Istg I'm being infected by certain somebody from this forum lol)


If it's an action with really short cast time like Esuna & Iaijutsu (Yes, SAMs also cast), then you just slide that 'Slidecast' portion toward the left together with the pink line. If it's an action that has longer cast time like Holy III, Flare, Despair, or (Ver)Raise, you just do the opposite.

So to answer your question? Yes, because the free movement window will be longer in shorter cast time actions, but your slidecast window does not change, no matter what action you're using so long it has progress bar. Heck you can even slidecast a quest interactive point by applying the same practice and still get your quest progress.

4) Like Sebazy have mentioned, any BLMs (or anything that uses progress bar, really) that performs meticulously at high end content will always abuse slidecasting when they can, so yes.

Will not answer 5th because it's not specifically the part I (and very likely tearegion too) was confused with your earlier posts. That's for you and Silver's to continue should they wish to.

[Silver-Strider]

5) Given (4), does it stand to reason that a Healer that also used hardcasts and GCD healing could fit within the same mobility model?
(Either with extra movement tools, like BLM has - regardless of what anyone wants to define terms as or how narrowly, BLM does have tools that allow movement, and I'm not sure why anyone would contest a point so factual - or with shorter cast times, which also allow more movement, or a combination of both.).

As this is pertaining to our original discussion, I'll answer no because GCDs are fundamentally flawed given a multitude of factors in addition to their cast times.
Let's take something like Golbez ex as an example. Fight requires a good bit of movement to resolve the mechanics in a timely fashion but if at any point someone is clipped by a mechanic, say during Gale 2, it quickly snowballs because you barely have time to even cast Glare, much less Cure 2 to try and heal them before the next mechanic is resolving. Cure 1 doesn't heal enough to help them survive, hell, people barely survive it with a Solace most of the time because the vuln stack they get for their initial screw up and that only covers for 1 person's screw up. If multiple people screw up, they're pretty much dead.

Then, we have the other factors of MP Cost and DPS loss associated with GCD heals. With the exception of Lilies, the overwhelming majority of GCD Heals are too costly to maintain at any consistent level of play and are not DPS neutral. How do you justify a Healer who spends the majority of their time Healing in a game when MP costs for heals are double the cost of the DPS spell and has Enrage encounters so tight that it is mathmatially impossible for a standard comp to clear fights at Minimum ilvl without Healer DPS? What tools can you give healers that would allow that model of gameplay to even be viable? You'd have to not only rework healers entirely but fight design would also need to be greatly changed as well, which is just an unreal expectation of anyone to have of the Devs when they themselves have admitted they don't know what to do with one of the Healers.

It does not work for this game.

[Shurrikhan]

I kind of have to disagree here, Silver.

First, GCD healing doesn't necessitate that they would all have cast times, let alone GCD-length ones.

Moreover, similar to how Kenki can hold up to 1819 effective potency bankably (since our analog here is healing/cure potency), you could just have GCD-generated oGCD value that would be just enough for covering a period of movement requirements.

There's also your older, more traditional ways of dealing with those situations: pre-application of sustain, such as through HoTs or absorbs. Just don't leave them absurdly pathetic compared to your free/CD-based healing, and the design is completely viable.

MMOs with healing and movement requirements far more chaotic/frenetic and intense than ours still manage with GCD healers.

Then, we have the other factors of MP Cost and DPS loss associated with GCD heals.

That's not a fundamental issue, though. It's incidental one. Solely time-based / free healing (oGCD heals not generated by GCD heals or otherwise time-gated means of potency recovery) are flagrantly excessive and overpowered. If they were reined in, there'd be no issue.

Even without reining in the excessive oGCD heals (for which our damage ceiling has been ever lowered to support), it's not necessarily or even likely a problem, just like BLM's low %damage coming from oGCDs/time-generated resources is not a fundamental issue.

Otherwise, you're saying the likes of that neither Savage Dungeons nor a low-self-healing tank can exist in this game, because Warrior exists in its current broken state. You... fix the broken thing before basing off its example what would or would not be "fundamentally" broken/unworkable.



Consider: Before our healing was almost entirely oGCD based, healer damage ceilings were considerably higher despite having a higher potency cost for any healing... precisely because both your relative healing and damage outputs were taxed to support all that free healing. We didn't gain actually free damage from making our healing "free"; we just pre-paid for the opportunity to spam more repetitively.

Opposite that, a more GCD-based healer wouldn't have any greater combined rDPS+HPS, but they would have more agency over which way their resources swing by the simple fact that those two resources have to be balanced around their use-conflicts, much like Stormblood Scholar had more swing available to it with its more worthwhile Energy Drain or ARR WHM had due to its filler damage being 210p* Stone II vs. Ruin's original 100p, or its original 240p Holy spam (while Miasma II was at the time a 24s DoT, iirc).

*(WHM's potency drops for every rank of Stone are more a matter of the conversion of mages' Weapon DPS damage contribution, but the gap between it and Ruin then and now should point out the value that was perceived to fall into Carbuncle auto-attacks or Eos/Selene auto-heals. ACN/SCH/SMN was locked into a prepayment on / specialization towards damage or healing that they then couldn't swing towards/via greater ppgcd. Beyond that, too, the value locked into, say, 3 Lustrates per minute (20% each until 2.1, 25% each after) kept their actual healing ppgcd low, too, outside of crit Adlos; at least then, though, Energy Drain had a decent bit of punch relative to the rest of SCH's skills, so they could get some swing there despite their pet.)

[Shurrikhan]

Warrior already fulfilled the niche of being the simple tank after the 4.2 rework, it was easy to understand but gauge management to maximize your bonus critical hit and the limitations to Infuriate left some room for skill expression.

All that 5.0 and 6.0 did was sandblast all remaining nuance out of the job until nothing but a mindnumbing shell remained.


Gunbreaker was in a great spot when it initially released, the 2-cartridge system allowed for excess Burst Strikes between No Mercy windows in case the boss needed repositioning and provided acess to weave slots in the middle of your burst. Endwalker just tacked random additions to the job that made it clunkier as a result.

Double Down didn't need to cost 2 cartridges, it's already limited by it's cooldown, the 3 cartridges just resulted in the job being punished more for downtime where you can't generate resources and Hypervelocity introduced mandatory weaves to an ability that really didn't need them.

It's still "fine" but they didn't really improve upon it's original design besides maybe HoC.

I still consider HoC a downgrade, design-wise, from HoS simply because its value became that much less timing-dependent, and therefore that much less rewarding.

Hypervelocity I'm fine with. Honestly, Double Down I'm also fine with. I don't particularly like it, but neither do I think it's bad.

If we're having to constrain thematic territory just because some other tank deals with downtime better, then either leverage alternative advantages or fix the outlier.

Or address the mechanic itself in a way that doesn't detract from theme: Do we really need a button that generates immediate ammo on pull to compensate for its being a builder-spender system, vs. just letting GNB generate ammo over time (scaling with GCD speed) and making it therefore a spender-rebuilder system? Would it be so awful to trade Bloodfest instead to an ability that grants Haste and, further, the frequency of ammo generation or that refunds every other ammo spent after it's pressed for a set duration?

Inner Chaos is literally just old Inner Beast but with fancier VFX effects, so I can see why it would feel underwhelming compared to Fell Cleave.

Since they left the XI Upheaval animation still unused, I was kind of hoping at least copy that over for the new single-target Wrath/Beast skill, instead of literally just the-pre-upgraded-animation-but-with-more-yellow-and-orange.

Alas, in XIV, 'minimum effort [=] best [level of] effort'? ???

[Renathras]

I forgot to mention it yesterday...

Yeah, that's what I meant by the 0.5 sec window on every cast. It's also why I specified movement distances.

[Reply to a non-topical post, ignore]

Long long time ago

Other than calling someone lying about me out as lying about me - which isn't an insult, it's a statement of fact - and noting someone else was EXTREMELY angry for no reason at all, none of those are insults.
Saying you're dogpiling when you're dogpiling isn't an insult. (And the simple solution is to stop dogpiling).
Saying you didn't read my post when you clearly didn't read my post (or what it was responding to) isn't an insult.
Pointing out that your attacks on me are actually proving my point right isn't an insult.

Just admit your ignorance and be quiet for once.

I already said it, but I'll say it again: I'm not going to lie to help your ego. No amount of unhniged ranting on your part is going to change that, nor your attempts to silence someone you don't like. Try to silence someone else. They'll probably tell you off just the same, though.
I'm not trying to insult you, but I'm done trying to deal with career haters that just want to be rude and pick fights and derail discussions and try to single people out for attack and ridicule. I oppose that when I'm not the one being attacked and I oppose it when I am. I hate bullies, and I won't bow to your bullying, either.

...

Yeah, it may be a definitional thing. It's why I pointed out all casts have a small window of about half a second, but that ones less than the GCD allow considerable overall movement for dealing with mechanics. You ignored (5), but (5) was the context of the conversation and WHY that's important. Specifically why, if Jobs having to rely on that 0.5 sec window are still viable under the current high movement system, than Jobs with even more free movement would also be viable.

It does not work for this game.

I kind of have to disagree here, Silver.
...

I'm in agreement with Shurrikhan.

Healing was nearly completely GCD based (especially on WHM) in ARR, and still largely GCD based in HW.

And quite a few of your complaints are variables:

1) MP costs - MP costs don't have to stay what they are. There's nothing set in stone that says Cure 2 MUST cost 1000 MP. It didn't always.

2) GCD focus doesn't mean oGCDs don't exist. Even in ARR, WHM had Benediction and SCH had Lustrate.

3) Instant cast and 1.5 sec cast also can exist in GCD based gameplay. Generally speaking, you could make the system where faster casting/quick acting spells either cost a resource (Lilies) or cost larger amounts of MP to limit their use to more emergency situations (for better or worse, WoW did this in Cataclysm; the healing overall was imbalanced because encounter damage was still tuned up at near-Wrath levels, which exceeded what the healing kits could handle, but the concept of having "fast but inefficient" heals has merit). When you don't have time to cast a Cure 2, you cast a Solace, for example. And you could have a system that had very fast casting healing spells but that cost more, like SGE already does with Eukrasia (yes, it casts their shields - but those are still GCDs with an "effective" cast time of 1 sec due to Eukrasia's CD, but which heal for more total than a mere Prognosis/Diagnosis when you include the shield).

4) If the game was actually balanced around this, then the "DPS loss" wouldn't be an issue, as it would either be refunded in some ways (Misery, Toxicon if it actually was balanced for it, etc), or encounter Enrage timers would be balanced based on the assumption of Healers doing lower DPS. This is also a numbers adjustment, not a mechanics adjustment. SGE already is borderline there in some ways. If Toxicon was damage neutral, GCD healing with shields for SGE would actually be viable. Lilies on WHM are GCD heals (no cast times, but still GCD) that refund their damage with Misery, making WHM's current GCD-focused healing style (it has oGCDs, but a lot of its ambient healing is GCD based and using Lilies is actually both a DPS gain and MP management tool) and already work within the current system.

[Deo14]

Other than calling someone lying about me out as lying about me - which isn't an insult, it's a statement of fact - and noting someone else was EXTREMELY angry for no reason at all, none of those are insults.
Saying you're dogpiling when you're dogpiling isn't an insult. (And the simple solution is to stop dogpiling).
Saying you didn't read my post when you clearly didn't read my post (or what it was responding to) isn't an insult.
Pointing out that your attacks on me are actually proving my point right isn't an insult.

I already said it, but I'll say it again: I'm not going to lie to help your ego. No amount of unhniged ranting on your part is going to change that, nor your attempts to silence someone you don't like. Try to silence someone else. They'll probably tell you off just the same, though.
I'm not trying to insult you, but I'm done trying to deal with career haters that just want to be rude and pick fights and derail discussions and try to single people out for attack and ridicule. I oppose that when I'm not the one being attacked and I oppose it when I am. I hate bullies, and I won't bow to your bullying, either.

Damn, that's very generous definition of what is and isn't insult - surely it applies for others too, and not just for you, right? You can check my post history, my "insults" are very mild compared to you straight up calling others dicks and calling me specifically an "angry rooster who sat on a corncob" (I appreciate the creativity) and suggested that someone peed in my cornflakes. What the hell dude, I don't even like cornflakes, they're bland and tasteless. But I appreciate you calling me Batman, that's very cool.

You guys REALLY need to stop being dicks for dogpile points.
.
Holy angry A-hole, Batman!
.
Good god, who peed in your cornflakes? o.O
.
Next time, don't come out like an angry rooster who sat on a corncob and actually bother reading what people wrote and asking them questions if you're confused instead of launching into an unhinged tirade to prove you're better than someone on the internet.

Don't be surprised that people dogpile on you when you spew such a dumb bullshit and then you even double and triple down. Almost as if your actions have consequences, crazy right? I don't know whether you even remember it, but I did try to engage with you in real discussions back in NIN thread. But yeah, one of your first responses was that you made up a new term "button inflation", then I started losing faith in you more and more.

Insults never prove or disprove any points. Yes, it's childish (and I'm very in touch with my inner child), but if you have valid point and throw insult in there, the point is still valid, like it or not.

No amount of unhniged ranting on your part is going to change that, nor your attempts to silence someone you don't like.

I won't try to claim that I'm not ranting every now and then, but you're really not the one to speak of unhinged rants.

And yes, silencing someone isn't a nice thing (I never claimed to not be an asshole), but honestly, being quiet for few days would be good for you. Try to listen for a while, you won't learn new things by speaking, and especially not if you're so dismissive and disagree just to support your own arguments.

Now that everything is clear, I hope you feel informed, and if not, then:

Consider yourself informed, now.

[BaconBits]

:

I will be taking this.

[SieyaM]

As an answer to the thread title:

2 minute burst window needs to burn in the fire. Plain and simple first point.

While I agree the 2 minutes burst window is definitely hampering design, I don't think it is the only offender just the biggest offender.

[Ivtrix]

While I agree the 2 minutes burst window is definitely hampering design, I don't think it is the only offender just the biggest offender.

combine it with hitboxes so big to the point where melee dont have to disengage from the boss therefore have 0 risk because you can 100% uptime leads to why melee are so strong this expansion

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

I feel like the problem is the game is designed around the 120 second burst rule, and every fight is just a DPS check with an enrage timer.

The 120 Burst window is the biggest problem in terms of battle design, it makes all the fights feel samey and playing your jobs becomes extremely monotonous.

The devs have placed a huge limitation in how they can design their fight and job designs.