What's with Paladin?

[MsMisato]

Dark Knight is feels more straight forward than that.

That sounds like a real pain compared to Warrior and Dark Knight while lacking flexibility.

Don't insult my intelligence. I didn't attack you, so why are you attacking me? Now I'm less inclined to believe anything you said.

this is like a straightforward explanation of paladin rotation with a simple recovery if anyone fumbles. Not sure how you think they are insulting your intelligence.

[Thurmnmurmn]

Dark Knight is feels more straight forward than that.

That sounds like a real pain compared to Warrior and Dark Knight while lacking flexibility.

Don't insult my intelligence. I didn't attack you, so why are you attacking me? Now I'm less inclined to believe anything you said.

That wasn't even close to a personal attack. No need to get super defensive and double down on your bad take. Being able to admit one was wrong is a beautiful trait in humans.

You could say it's personal preferences, that's fine. But don't blame it on something like button bloat of all things cuz that's just not true.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I’m almost sure OP is upset for being implied of not reading their tooltip from this sentence:

[…]it's really simple if you spend 5-10 minutes reading tooltips/checking opener[…]

This is one of those interactions of why I 99% of time stopped trying to convince Freecure mages away from their life calling, lmao.

[Rongway]

you also want to drop 1-2 Atonement to properly realign

Dropping Atonements was unnecessary even before the 6.4 changes. With the 6.4 changes Atonement no longer cancels combos, so you can safely hold one or two for FoF or to get better timing on your combo refresh.

[Jeeqbit]

Dropping Atonements was unnecessary even before the 6.4 changes. With the 6.4 changes Atonement no longer cancels combos, so you can safely hold one or two for FoF or to get better timing on your combo refresh.

The reason to drop them was so you could be ready to have Divine Might/Holy Spirit into Royal Authority into Divine Might/Holy Spirit.

This is still necessary if you want the highest potency in the burst and to start the burst immediately as Fight or Flight comes back. It's nice that they don't cancel the combo, but it doesn't change how Divine Mights don't stack up to 3 or 4, which is what would be needed to prevent someone having to be just beyond Riot Blade in their combo before a burst. 4 just so we account for skill speed builds that would allow for more in the burst window.

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

this is like a straightforward explanation of paladin rotation with a simple recovery if anyone fumbles. Not sure how you think they are insulting your intelligence.

Their last part of their post was a passive aggressive insult to my intelligence. It isn't hard to notice. They has no reason to imply I didn't read other than to attack me personally.

I'm shocked I have to explain it. It's obvious what their intent is.

That's why they're on ignore.

[Deo14]

Their last part of their post was a passive aggressive insult to my intelligence. It isn't hard to notice. They has no reason to imply I didn't read other than to attack me personally.

I'm shocked I have to explain it. It's obvious what their intent is.

That's why they're on ignore.

It should be mandatory for some people to play DotA every now and then so they can grow some skin.

[Thurmnmurmn]

Their last part of their post was a passive aggressive insult to my intelligence. It isn't hard to notice. They has no reason to imply I didn't read other than to attack me personally.

I'm shocked I have to explain it. It's obvious what their intent is.

That's why they're on ignore.

It's also a common stereo type in here that players don't read their tooltips and don't know their rotations.
If that's all it takes for you to put on ignore, that's a you problem. Not everything is a personal attack. This sounds more like a playful jab at the community.

[Eorzean_username]

It's like 2-3 steps away from just spamming 1-2-3, it's really simple if you spend 5-10 minutes reading tooltips/checking opener.

Their last part of their post was a passive aggressive insult to my intelligence. It isn't hard to notice. They has no reason to imply I didn't read other than to attack me personally.

They're just stating a fact, it's obviously not a personal attack at all.

They're literally just saying, "Paladin is simple enough to execute that you can pretty much figure it out just from reading all your tooltips, and then finish off your work by searching up the community's optimized opener, after which the Job will basically play itself".

It's just commentary intended to reinforce their argument that Paladin isn't bloated or complicated compared to other Jobs.

[Renathras]

It seems to have an insane amount of Button bloat (especially for AoE) compared to the other Tanks and has multiple abilities that pretty much do the same thing and has multiple things it needs to fill up for their abilities. Like their defensives being mostly the same thing. Wouldn't it make more sense to consolidate them and reduce the cooldown? It wasn't a fun experience. Went right back to Dark Knight and Warrior.

PLD does have button bloat, but so does DRK. WAR is the only Tank that doesn't have a lot of fat to trim. PLD definitely is on the higher end of bloat, but not unique in this respect. AST is pretty bad, DRG is pretty bad, NIN is somewhat bad, DRK is kinda bad, SCH is somewhat bad, and so on.

All of the Tanks have multiple similar abilities on similar CDs where, honestly, they could just give you the basic ability or two and give it charges. For example, does WAR really need Vengeance (120 sec, 30% damage reduction and small potency reflected damage for 15 sec), Rampart (90 sec, 20% damage reduction, 20 sec), Reprisal (60 sec, 10% damage reduction, 10 sec), and Bloodwhetting (25 sec, ~19% reduction for 4 sec, 10% reduction for 8 sec) instead of just normalizing this to one or two abilities with charges?

This is true of all the Tanks, btw, a lot of the Healers, and a lot of the Damage Dealers, where Jobs have several abilities that do borderline the same thing or even EXACTLY the same thing, and sometimes used in tandem, such that half the cases could be to just give the ability charges, and the other half could be handled by just boosting the power of the single ability. For example, PLD never is going to use Fight or Flight without Requiescat. So why are there two buttons for this? Just have Fight or Flight trait up to Requiescat to trigger its effects, and stick the damage from Requiescat into either Goring or Confetior. Or remove Goring, too - you never use it alone outside of this combo, either - and just fold its damage into Confetior.

Expacion and Circle of Scorn both are oGCDs and both have the exact same 30 sec CDs. Why are these two distinct buttons? Why not just have Circle do Spirits Within's damage + 120 potency to the target and then the 120 potency spash damage to all surrounding enemies and the DoT to all of them? Why is this a separate button at this point in the game's life? Spirits Within can upgrade to Circle of Scorn can upgrade to Expacion. Saved another hotbar slot there.

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The problem is, then people will complain that it's "dumbed down" and "homogenized".

Even though those changes wouldn't make it either - buttons you have just to have them and to EVERY SO SLIGHTLY increase a chance of mistake, not by lack of skill but by accident/fat-fingering, are not matters of skill or brainpower to have.

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That said, if you worry about this with PLD...why on earth would you go to DRK or especially WAR, which are even MORE that way? o.O

EDIT:

The only real "button bloat" you could argue on Paladin is Holy Spirit/Circle but that applies to every job due to SE's obsession with a single target and aoe equivalent on separate buttons. Otherwise, Circle of Scorn is... maybe a bit "bloaty"

Now if you wanted to say Paladin has some boring buttons, I'd be more inclined to agree. Goring Blade definitely feels lazy and Cover is in desperate need of a rework. Otherwise, it's more or less in line with the other tanks.

Holy Spirit/Circle are the part of this I WOULDN'T call button bloat, unless you think it should just be one that does both effects? Like Holy Spirit, but it now has AOE falloff so you don't need a separate button for AOE, but then why have 1-2 AOE as a distinct combo at all?

Like I said above, Circle of Scorn/Expaciation is bloat (they have an identical CD, are both AOE, and you'll never use them individually, always together), Fight or Flight and Requiescat same story (or alternatively, Requiescat being combined with Confetior; either way its damage would go to Confetior), Goring Blade and Confetior same story again. That's three buttons that could be removed/combined and nothing of value would be lost; the rotation wouldn't even change except you'd get one other GCD during Requiescat. If Holy Spirit was just always instant, they could give it to you as level 15 (and give it the boost agro effect) and you wouldn't need Shield Lob anymore.

There are other things you could do, like combine Shelltron and Intervention like GNB, but that would change how it's played a bit and be more homogenization, the above combinations really wouldn't be.

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There are definitely some things on some Jobs that are "Why is this an extra button?", "Why is this button on this Job?", or even "Why does this button even exist?", but not everything is that way.

There are valid things to say are bloat, but not everything is. And the definition of bloat will vary from person to person, so it's not always easy to nail it down. (Personally, I go with the "Doesn't interact with any other part of the kit, is used on CD/never held, is always used with some other button to the point combining their effects would not change anything, is never used or so rarely used/has such a narrow use case that it doesn't justify being a button/hotbar slot, or some combination of the above". It's not perfect, but is probably a pretty good working definition. Note that SOME situational/rarely used buttons are fine, but they need to have interesting and useful effects. For all the flack Cover gets, it can be very useful in some cases - a group cleared TOP with no Healer by using Cover to get through/cheese a mechanic, and people have given some uses for it in prog or 24 mans in this thread. Shield Bash is a love/hate with me because it's pretty useful in stuff like PotD but not so much elsewhere, though it could just as easily have its effect combined with something else [Shield Lob, for example] and wouldn't alter the rotation or gameplay any at all in 99.999% of content...and possibly 100% - they even have the same Potency. XD

There are other Jobs that are far worse, actually having things that are never used unless something horrible has happened that should never happen anyway, or that have effects that are redundant with other things.)