Your Opinion on the Current State of Job Identity/Balance in 6.4?

[Reimmi]

I wouldn't say Tanks are the same. Dark Knight isn't the same as Warrior at all other than both having a combo system. Warrior is much easier for less experienced players to play as, while Dark Knight is much squishier (and way less self-healing) and takes more skill.

I meant more that fel cleave is the same thing as bloodspiller, both inner release and delirium give you 3 uses of it as well. The only difference is potencies, they have the exact same gameplay for that ability
Stuff like that. GNB and pld have very similar rotations, too, with no mercy and fight or flight now

[drtasteyummy]

Play Dragoon:

1. Keep Debuff up
2. Press Cooldowns in 120s window
3. Do positionals

Play Reaper:

1. Keep Debuff up
2. Press Cooldowns in 120s window
3. Do positionals

Play Samurai:

1. Keep Debuff up
2. Press Cooldowns in 120s window
3. Do positionals

Nah man it's fun I love it, your whole rotation drifting because of one GCD is amazing design, having to press the same buttons every try at the same point in the fight and then pray to the DH and Crit god is amazing, fun and truly interactive.

[Tanis_Ebonhart]

Play Dragoon:

1. Keep Debuff up
2. Press Cooldowns in 120s window
3. Do positionals

Play Reaper:

1. Keep Debuff up
2. Press Cooldowns in 120s window
3. Do positionals

Play Samurai:

1. Keep Debuff up
2. Press Cooldowns in 120s window
3. Do positionals

Nah man it's fun I love it, your whole rotation drifting because of one GCD is amazing design, having to press the same buttons every try at the same point in the fight and then pray to the DH and Crit god is amazing, fun and truly interactive.

That's overly simplifying it.

Those jobs don't play the same when you actually play as them.

[Renathras]

Hey there everyone, I'm pretty new to the game (the forums too) and I've been hearing a lot of talk about FFXIV's Jobs like Summoner getting reworked, tanks getting nerfed, skills getting removed, healers getting homogenized and all that stuff.

However, everything I've heard on that front is a year+ old and a lot has happened since then, including some buffs; but I've heard nobody talk about it, so I figured I'd ask you.

What's your opinion on job identity right now? how's your main job doing? do you think Square is going in the right direction or do you still miss how your class(s) were in a past iteration of FFXIV? let me know

A lot of people are very opinionated and like to complain about things. It's like the old saying "misery loves company".

I don't want to write off all of them, as there are legitimate complaints...but there's also a LOT of hyperbole.

FFXIV has shifted over time to be a more rigid combat system with more combat focus, and so there are a lot less "fun" abilities dealing with the outside world and just adventuring, and things have become far more polished and streamlined over time. There's a lot less jank and clunk and players trying to shoehorn "mastering clunk" as "skill", and have less things they can use in ways not originally intended (like the ARR Tank and Healer stance that was designed for when they did solo content and trying to use it in group content, which made Devs' attempts at balance a nightmare).

Some people really like that sort of thing.

There are also some things that kind of have changed over time to be somewhat pointless. For example, BRD's Sidewinder skill used to do more damage based on DoTs on the target, giving it some synergy with their kit, which was later removed. But the ability wasn't, so now they have this kind of vestigial ability that's just "press every 60 seconds" for no good reason. Likewise, the WHM Trait "Freecure" (casting Cure 1 giving a chance for the next Cure 2 to be MP free) made sense when most healing was done with GCD spells and you'd often have a WHM casting Cure 1 over and over and then using those Freecure procs for Cure 2 as part of how they managed their MP, something that's close to irrelevant now that they have Lilies and that Healers in general have so much MP-free oGCD healing.

So people complain about that.

Whether you see the complaints as valid or not depends on the person. For my part, I think MOST aren't really worth complaining over, although some have a little merit, but are totally destroyed by the complainers going into ridiculous hyperbole and hysterics.

.

"What's your opinion on job identity right now?"

For my part, Job identity is in a good place. Every Job feels pretty distinct with its VFX and most with their playstyle, even in roles where there's a lot of overlap. Pretty much every Job nails their class fantasy pretty good, too, though sometimes in the stuff people engage more indirectly with. For example, SCH's DPS kit doesn't scream "military tactician", but its healing kit does with skills like Emergency/Deployment Tactics, Expedient, Sacred Soil, Excogitation, Recitation, Protraction, and their various Faerie abilities.

"how's your main job doing?"

I don't EXACTLY have a main Job, but I play WHM, SCH, and SGE pretty frequently, RDM and SMN moderately frequently, and GNB, PLD, and WAR somewhat frequently. All of them feel pretty unique and fun to me. They all feel different when I'm playing them, do the job well, and meet their class fantasy in my book. The only one I have any complaint about is that I think WHM needs a 60 sec CD party mitigation ability, since it's the only Healer Job that has only 1 party mit in its entire toolkit, and only once every 2 mins.

"do you think Square is going in the right direction or do you still miss how your class(s) were in a past iteration of FFXIV?"

This depends on the Job. There are things I don't like them pushing for - damage >>> all, 2 min burst meta, heavy focus on mitigation instead of healing in encounters, encounter design being big spikes of damage and long periods of downtime, and Tanks/DPS having too much party healing and mitigation - but in terms of Job design itself, I think I'm mostly okay with changes. Most Jobs they've changed that I play (and some I've just dabbled with) I like the changes of. There's one or two that I'm more ambivalent about, but they aren't ones that I play, and I figure the changes are probably more for people who don't like things that I like, so I'm okay with that.

On the whole, I think I like what they're doing other than the specific things I pointed out there, and those aren't so much Job design things as they are overall game/encounter design things. I CERTAINLY don't like pre-ShB WHM, especially SB WHM, which was just absolute garbage tier and the worst time to play WHM in the game. ShB and EW are SO much better it's insane.

.

I've played PLD, WHM, SCH, and SMN since ARR (I started in 2.3 and CNJ/WHM was my first class), picked up RDM in SB, picked up GNB in ShB, picked up WAR and sorta MCH and a bit of NIN in ShB.

PLD now is better imo than ShB, EW, and HW PLD, and about on par with ARR just more polished and actually makes sense. The post-6.3 rework really nails the "holy magic wielding knight" feeling as you rotate through sword skills and spell casting, culminating with a big series of powerful magical attacks that make me think of FFTactics Knights and Holy Knights. And as it always has, it really has strong vibes of protecting your friend with stuff like Intervention, Cover, Passage of Arms, Divine Veil, and Clemency. My only major issue with PLD is synced content can feel pretty bad, and it doesn't get any healing effects until super late, Clemency in the 50s to have any, and not until the 70s (or 80s?) into its main rotation. In ARR, PLD could Cross-Class Cure 1 and Stoneskin (which were both actually useful), and even Raise (though only out of combat). I do feel like it could use a lower level version of Clemency, at least, to tide it over in lower level stuff and PotD and such. But it does feel pretty good at level cap, they just need to massage the leveling experience to give you that feel earlier (this is probably true of most/all the Jobs, though)

WHM now is better than it has been since ARR, and probably better than ARR. SB was the worst time for WHM, and HW was the second-worst. WHM nails the healer without peer with powerful and efficient heals that are direct and to the point. No frills, just does the job and does it well.

SCH has changed a lot, so depends on the person; if you like the healing side, it's as good as it's ever been. If you liked being a DPS/Support, you might not like it, but that doesn't apply to me. As I said above, there's a lot of tactical options and healing/mitigation options for your party, as well as coordinating with your lieutenant, Eos, to get the healing done. Nails the scholarly military officer healer class fantasy. I really do love all the defensive and healing options, and even the movement option of Expedient (even if they nerfed the duration), which can be amazing in some fights.

SMN is actually a Summoner now, and I love it. The "DoT Mage" thing was always kinda stupid to me, and by ShB, it was just so convoluted and held together by duct tape, there was no where else to go with it that wouldn't have totally imploded. I find it extremely fun and just a joy to play right now. It's the only DPS in the game you can learn by just reading your tooltips (instead of HAVING to go to out-of-game resources to learn), and you don't have to keep your eyes glued to your hotbars watching for procs or on the enemy's debuff bar looking for your DoTs to fall off or your own bar looking for when your self-buffs fall off. SMN is just fun and can be played by feel, which is great, and it really feels like what a Summoner is supposed to feel like as you roll through summoning big and powerful Primals to rain fire on your enemies.

[GoatOfWar]

Being worse Warrior sucks.

[Renathras]

I assume you're referring to old SCH...

I liked your first post in this thread, but couldn't disagree more with this one.

1) Not all SCH's liked the DoT focus. /raises hand

2) SOME players appreciate WAR, many do not. Many Tanks want to play a tank and not a healer. Many Healers want to play a healer and not a tank or a DPS. Making Healer Jobs into DPSers and telling them to go play WAR if they want to heal seems bad on all counts.

3) RaionKansen is right that "more dots" isn't the answer. At best, it papers over the problem of Healers feeling unnecessary in even current content. It doesn't actually fix the problem, it just lets them be even worse and more braindead (but SLIGHTLY less braindead) DPS Jobs. Say SCH got a 15 and 18 second DoT, one with a cast time, and an AF spender that did more damage based on DoTs. Is that really going to be more compelling for long? You're not hitting Broil as much...but you're not hitting it THAT much less often. If it makes up 80% of your casts now, it'll still make up 70% of your casts after the change, and it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to go "look under boss health bar, make sure it has my three DoTs on it before hitting Bane, repeat until AF all gone".

...at WORST, it just makes the role into worse DPS and alienates people that genuinely like healing into quitting the game or leaving those classes. If someone likes healing - and I mean "filling up people's HP bars - and not DPS rotations, then all "more dots" will do is encourage them to play RDM or possibly SMN or DNC instead, maybe WAR or PLD, or quit the game, neither of which is great for the game. Groups will start dropping Healers, as why take a Green Job that has the rotation of a Tank but does even less damage and brings nothing useful to the table when you could just bring an extra WAR and an extra DPS instead and clear the encounter just fine, and faster?

I do think there's some design space in making the Healer JOBS more distinct - SCH having DoTs and SGE having a combo rotation, for example, leaving AST and WHM basically how they are now; that might work - but "more dots" won't actually fix the problem, and even giving just SCH more and SGE a combo rotation won't really fix anything, it'll just steal some of the hyperbole from the people who want to be "dps-lite Support" and want to coopt the Healer role into being that when the Tanks are already that and they don't want to play those because they don't want "the responsibility" or...something.

4) If you're going to remove Healing from the game, you'd be better off just deleting the four Jobs instead of trying to change them into "dps-lite Support". You'd also need to make Jobs for the people that play them now that they might vaguely enjoy, meaning you'd need some DPS Jobs that have an automatic DPS rotation for the people that don't really care for DPS rotations, and that would just be stupid.

[Shurrikhan]

I liked your first post in this thread, but couldn't disagree more with this one.

1) Not all SCH's liked the DoT focus.

Sure, but was that because they disliked having soft-CDs and variable ppgcd costs of healing, and the added skill ceiling that brought with it, or because they occasionally had to look at the Target's Status Effects (Debuffs)?

DoTs' place in SCH gameplay wasn't just that they were debuffs, nor just that they were over time. They were integral to its offensive kit in numerous ways.

RaionKansen is right that "more dots" isn't the answer. At best, it papers over the problem of Healers feeling unnecessary in even current content.

Wait, so... we refuse all other options on the basis that they'll excessively raise the skill floor (to... what it was for the first 3 versions of the game / over 60% of its lifetime), leaving only the ability to make better use of downtime, which in turn we constrain on the basis that utility would be too situational or, if rDPS focused, bloated (AoE) or parser-demanding (ST)... leaving us with one tool that best allows for flexibility and leverageable depth together.

But somehow, even after having cleared all other possible solutions off the table, DoTs can't even be AN* answer???

*(Despite this goalpost shift of yours, few if any have ever made the claim that they must be THE sole answer, only at most the best of what remains.)

If you're going to remove Healing from the game, you'd be better off just deleting the four Jobs instead of trying to change them into "dps-lite Support".

What you're describing here is in no way suggested by what you're quoting, nor has almost ever been suggested except in jest or as a description of what healers, having so few responsibilities, already are --simplified/braindrained [green] DPS with a mostly noninteractive collection of abilities to be used according to a particular fight-specific script.

Even were the game to turn into the likes of GW2, though, how would simply removing 4 jobs in a tantrum, DPS or otherwise, be healthier for the game than revamping those 4 jobs to better fit that context?

[Silver-Strider]

...at WORST, it just makes the role into worse DPS and alienates people that genuinely like healing into quitting the game or leaving those classes. If someone likes healing - and I mean "filling up people's HP bars - and not DPS rotations, then all "more dots" will do is encourage them to play RDM or possibly SMN or DNC instead, maybe WAR or PLD, or quit the game, neither of which is great for the game. Groups will start dropping Healers, as why take a Green Job that has the rotation of a Tank but does even less damage and brings nothing useful to the table when you could just bring an extra WAR and an extra DPS instead and clear the encounter just fine, and faster?

I do think there's some design space in making the Healer JOBS more distinct - SCH having DoTs and SGE having a combo rotation, for example, leaving AST and WHM basically how they are now; that might work - but "more dots" won't actually fix the problem, and even giving just SCH more and SGE a combo rotation won't really fix anything, it'll just steal some of the hyperbole from the people who want to be "dps-lite Support" and want to coopt the Healer role into being that when the Tanks are already that and they don't want to play those because they don't want "the responsibility" or...something.

If you're going to remove Healing from the game, you'd be better off just deleting the four Jobs instead of trying to change them into "dps-lite Support". You'd also need to make Jobs for the people that play them now that they might vaguely enjoy, meaning you'd need some DPS Jobs that have an automatic DPS rotation for the people that don't really care for DPS rotations, and that would just be stupid.

I say let them quit.
The game is not designed to need to be constantly filling Health bars. In fact, it's so far in the opposite direction that 0-1 Healer runs are even a thing, even in Ultimate content. Fight design actively discourages the usage of GCD heals, not only because of enrage times but because of how movement heavy some fights are. Couple that with the fact that multiple mechanics go off back to back and that most GCD heals are either too slow to hit in time or don't provide enough of a heal to matter if someone screws up and there is just no fundamental way a traditional healer would work in the game. Everything nowadays boils down to either mitigation checks or body checks that healing in and of itself has very little value outside the bare minimum required to clear the content, which is something several non-healer jobs are capable of meeting, leaving the actual role of Healer to be questionable at best. You're already a worse DPS regardless if you're hitting 1 button or 30, it makes no difference.

As far as I'm concerned, SE already started to delete Healers in SB and nothing they've done in the past few years has really instilled any confidence that they'll be changing course any time soon.

[Coatl]

Correct. Healers are going to be mid for the foreseeable future.

[Shougun]

I liked your first post in this thread, but couldn't disagree more with this one.

1) Not all SCH's liked the DoT focus. /raises hand

2) SOME players appreciate WAR, many do not. Many Tanks want to play a tank and not a healer. Many Healers want to play a healer and not a tank or a DPS. Making Healer Jobs into DPSers and telling them to go play WAR if they want to heal seems bad on all counts.

3) RaionKansen is right that "more dots" isn't the answer. At best, it papers over the problem of Healers feeling unnecessary in even current content. It doesn't actually fix the problem, it just lets them be even worse and more braindead (but SLIGHTLY less braindead) DPS Jobs. Say SCH got a 15 and 18 second DoT, one with a cast time, and an AF spender that did more damage based on DoTs. Is that really going to be more compelling for long? You're not hitting Broil as much...but you're not hitting it THAT much less often. If it makes up 80% of your casts now, it'll still make up 70% of your casts after the change, and it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to go "look under boss health bar, make sure it has my three DoTs on it before hitting Bane, repeat until AF all gone".

...at WORST, it just makes the role into worse DPS and alienates people that genuinely like healing into quitting the game or leaving those classes. If someone likes healing - and I mean "filling up people's HP bars - and not DPS rotations, then all "more dots" will do is encourage them to play RDM or possibly SMN or DNC instead, maybe WAR or PLD, or quit the game, neither of which is great for the game. Groups will start dropping Healers, as why take a Green Job that has the rotation of a Tank but does even less damage and brings nothing useful to the table when you could just bring an extra WAR and an extra DPS instead and clear the encounter just fine, and faster?

I do think there's some design space in making the Healer JOBS more distinct - SCH having DoTs and SGE having a combo rotation, for example, leaving AST and WHM basically how they are now; that might work - but "more dots" won't actually fix the problem, and even giving just SCH more and SGE a combo rotation won't really fix anything, it'll just steal some of the hyperbole from the people who want to be "dps-lite Support" and want to coopt the Healer role into being that when the Tanks are already that and they don't want to play those because they don't want "the responsibility" or...something.

4) If you're going to remove Healing from the game, you'd be better off just deleting the four Jobs instead of trying to change them into "dps-lite Support". You'd also need to make Jobs for the people that play them now that they might vaguely enjoy, meaning you'd need some DPS Jobs that have an automatic DPS rotation for the people that don't really care for DPS rotations, and that would just be stupid.

No no no, you can't do that. Only agree with Shougun, no disagree. CFR 29 ShougunIsTheForums section B paren I- no disagree.

1) Prior to the change SCH was oriented for the more aggressive player. I will not say you can't change a job after made, but would it not be fair to say it changed from underneath some players and some of those players did not like what they 'gained' vs what they 'lost'? Such statement doesn't mean it has to be one way or the other, I just mean to say sure.. maybe you didn't like it but there were obviously people who did and they have not really gained anything like it back, just pure loss.

2) My post addresses this but I don't think this game can fit pure healer without substantial changes to many systems that will impact many other jobs, and I don't think people will in general appreciate those changes. To fix healers to be primarily healer I believe will cause more disruption than just to change other elements that I believe as in the other post "restore what was lost" or "offer a near equivalent experience of being supportive".

3) Disagree given that some people are wanting to do more, and while "more dots" is an over simplification but would be more to do and more particularly without heavy disruption (and in some cases "restoration" of what was something some people have wanted back). Again because it was lost doesn't mean it HAS to come back, just that it's worth noting and potentially addressing. Returning SCH to essentially what was before would be more than one or two spells for damage, especially if you kept that theme and leveled it up (as you'd likely gain more damage spells).

Again 'more dots' is an oversimplification and if it is to straw man the argument that's unfortunate, not saying you're doing that but when you see people refrence dots they're usually refrencing old scholar and by that they are /not/ simply saying add back a dot and they'll be happy. They miss all the activity and those particularly are missing specific elements of that activity (as SCH was fairly aggressive healer).

Also nothing wrong with being green dps, tanks are essentially blue dps and I like them more for it. I don't want to be just a tank when playing tank, as A it would make a terrible solo experience and B I feel it's more fun to essentially be 70% of a DPS and 100% of a tank. It's no wonder you see all tank parties sometimes, being a tank is practically OP. If healers felt similarly, cool for them. Naturally people will still play dps as it's just a popular concept and has lower overt responsibilities, sans dps checks.

Finally strongly pointing out in my suggestion there would be support healers, meaning that while you get back aggressive healers and high action on the target (and some auto-pilot healing from fairy, which brings flavor back to the job mechanically) there would also be healers that focus primarily on the allies and will help that way. In the end similar damage, just different methods. (SCH / SGE primarily target the enemy and work in targeting to allies as needed, WHM / AST primarily target the allies and work in enemy targeting as needed).

4) Didn't say remove healing entirely, as a legit suggestion- though I did flaunt it as a silly possibility. Personally I think healing potentials can stay similar, but there will be a lot of healing spells that now have bonus effects that relate to not the green bar, some spells removed, some collapsed, and multiple new actions that don't relate to exclusively making the green bar go up. By this healers constantly have more tasks to do, that are valid, and diverse, while still being able to heal approximately the same as they always have. I would not suggest 'nerf' healing in total output, simply remix and redistribute skill slots such that there is more to do without having to drastically change tank skills, gear mechanics, encounter mechanics, and sync for everyone.

Still can heal, and still can heal about the same, just more tasks to do other than 'just heal' when healing isn't really needed to that level. I think if we started earlier it would be easier to restore primarily healing, but at this point I think it's a lot easier to just accept that primarily healing is never going to happen, at least consistently / reliably, and you will make the jobs more exciting by taking the jobs into new ways of interacting with players and enemies (via offensive and 'supportive' styles).