Tank balance and what CBU3 wants to do with job balance

[Lyth]

One thing that I find interesting about the changes is the discussion around aDPS last tier. Tank rDPS last tier was probably the closest that it has been in the history of the game. The argument was made that aDPS should also be taken into account because rDPS does not capture differences in burst, and that DRK had an unfair advantage due to this. This perception was probably exacerbated by the fight-specific Everburn buff in P8S part 2. In short, you should not have an advantage in both rDPS and aDPS at the same time.

Yet this is what we currently see with WAR, SAM, and BLM. Part of this goes back to their longstanding development philosophy around making balancing decisions purely to mollify players, rather than balancing to achieve a level playing field where skilled players excel regardless of job. Why does it matter if the DPS subforum is flooded with complaint threads because SAM is not a mandatory pick? Let them simmer for a while. Eventually, the flavor-of-the-month players will just switch, and balance will be as it should be. If you don't, you perpetuate a cycle where it's the same few jobs that are perpetually at the top in every expansion. I'd love to see them actually stand up to the playerbase and quite literally level the playing field across the board. No special concessions. If vociferous sorts demand a dps advantage because they think their job is 'more challenging' than everyone else, give them the Kaiten treatment and then enforce parity. It's cruel, but a fair game is better for everyone in the long run.

Self-healing is another issue altogether. The primary reason why it exists is that most casual content is designed so that individual failures do not set back the team. You don't even start to see true 'raid-wipe' mechanics start to appear until Extreme trials, which is essentially the transition point away from that approach. It's the same reason why we have raises, in the event that you get two healers that just don't know how to do a fight. The problem is that instant, on-demand healing and regens do not really allow you to display your skill as a tank. If you want to see lifesteal done well, look at Death Strike. The amount of healing depends on the damage you've recently taken in the past X seconds. That's what tanks do, predict damage patterns. Without it, self-sustain becomes as mindless as sitting behind a chest-high wall recovering health in a cover-based shooter.

[Shurrikhan]

One thing that I find interesting about the changes is the discussion around aDPS last tier. Tank rDPS last tier was probably the closest that it has been in the history of the game.

That's because rDPS, again, is irrelevant to tank balance. None of them have buffs. All of them exploit buffs.

Were this the likes of any DPS but MCH, BLM, or SAM, you would have to look at both to get their full measure, because they both exploit and grant buffs.

That's not the case for tanks, though, for whom there is only one metric that is actually a representative measure of their offensive contribution (and does so in full, because they have no buffs): aDPS.

In short, you should not have an advantage in both rDPS and aDPS at the same time.

Agreed. Which does indeed make WAR, BLM, and SAM a bit problematic right now.

If you want to see lifesteal done well, look at Death Strike. The amount of healing depends on the damage you've recently taken in the past X seconds.

Aye. Or any other way in which something may be used/banked deliberately for context-dependent effect.

Even the original Inner Beast had this to an extent, as you'd be sacrificing your increased healing intake and crit chance in order to deploy the 900-1089 potency self-heal.

[Oizen]

I will say that right now, WAR really feels like an Omni-Job to me. Damage was the one thing it didn't have, now that it does its feels like its the optimal job in all forms of content.

I don't even really see how they plan on fixing this because I'd honestly rather see Tank sustain nerfed than it handed out to the absolute absurd levels that are Nascent/Bloodwhetting/Shake, playing the job this savage tier has shown me how hilariously effective (and free) it is just to make a Nascent Flash Macro and mash it on cooldown is when you're not needed. P11s is particularly guilty for this.

Not really sure what (if anything) is going to be done about it but it is disheartening

[Derio]

Mitigation vs sustain. Simple as that. If TBN was a cure potency with crit value. One example is P10s with the multi hit tank busters. Blood whetting is going to have more value over TBN simply because TBN will cover you for the first hit, thats it. Blood whetting will provide sustain and mitigation for the majority of the tankbuster. HOC does the same thing. The reason DRK doesnt have self sustain with its short cooldown is because of its high damage which we saw has been invalidated by this recent patch.

Right now WAR is god tier tank levels and considering there are no more ultimates until next expansion this will probably be the current balance because tanks are all still within 500 dps from the highest to the lowest.

[Shurrikhan]

The reason DRK doesnt have self sustain with its short cooldown is because of its high damage which we saw has been invalidated by this recent patch.

Except, it had competitive or greater sustain back when it also had the highest MT damage and was about tied for overall damage. So that explanation doesn't quite fit the job's actual history. It's kind of like blaming TBN for DRK's lack of self-healing; DRK had the greatest self-healing (such as in being able to afford DA-AD spam via self-refunding and MP-instantly-refilling Blood Weapon + Quietus spam)... in the same expansion that introduced TBN at its most powerful.*

* It was a 12s CD with 20% shield --proportionately less HP but therefore that much easier to break-- and 50 Blood rewarded on break (at a time when Bloodspiller dealt considerably more damage over average ppgcd than the potency-value of its MP cost -- 140p via DA, making TBN a slight damage gain).

Mitigation vs sustain. Simple as that. If TBN was a cure potency with crit value. One example is P10s with the multi hit tank busters. Blood whetting is going to have more value over TBN simply because TBN will cover you for the first hit, thats it. Blood whetting will provide sustain and mitigation for the majority of the tankbuster. HOC does the same thing.

Likewise... not really the crux of the issue.

First, sustain is anything that keeps you alive longer. Nominally, healing - overhealing + damage nullified. (Technically, it's contextual, effective damage nullified or recuperated. If you self-heal before being one-shot or before the likes of a Holmgang where more than the damage difference, it didn't add sustain. If you self-shield and don't consume the whole thing, the remainder provided no sustain. If you survive 1.99 hits, technically, that remaining .99 did not add sustain.)

The simpler difference is simply that unless one would be one-shot by the difference in max eHP increase, Bloodwhetting individually has greater sustain than TBN. 25% of a tank's HP is usually equal to about 1200-1300 sustain potency. Bloodwhetting does 2000 sustain potency atop its 20% mitigation for the first 4s and 10% for the remaining 4s of duration.

Now, when adjusting for the 40% greater frequency and Oblation being available per 4th use even at maximal TBN uptime (unrealistic, but hey), yeah, they hit rough parity.

But the difference isn't one of mitigation vs. sustain or even particularly content-scaling (%mitigation) vs. gear-scaling (self-healing/shielding and %HP shielding). It's just that one is clearly designed to be about half again as strong at its base and then has that context-scaling atop all that.

[Luizgazen]

Except, it had competitive or greater sustain back when it also had the highest MT damage and was about tied for overall damage. So that explanation doesn't quite fit the job's actual history. It's kind of like blaming TBN for DRK's lack of self-healing; DRK had the greatest self-healing (such as in being able to afford DA-AD spam via self-refunding and MP-instantly-refilling Blood Weapon + Quietus spam)... in the same expansion that introduced TBN at its most powerful.*

* It was a 12s CD with 20% shield --proportionately less HP but therefore that much easier to break-- and 50 Blood rewarded on break (at a time when Bloodspiller dealt considerably more damage over average ppgcd than the potency-value of its MP cost -- 140p via DA, making TBN a slight damage gain).

Sure, but it only lasted for one expansion, if that, and we're still being punished for it...

[Oizen]

Considering the entire DA/Abyssal spam took 3 skills, one of which had a longer cooldown than Bloodwhetting I personally view what WAR is doing now to be even more absurd than what DRK used to do with that.

[Shurrikhan]

Considering the entire DA/Abyssal spam took 3 skills, one of which had a longer cooldown than Bloodwhetting I personally view what WAR is doing now to be even more absurd than what DRK used to do with that.

It is, definitely. But at the time, DRK's mass-AoE self-sustain was the most ridiculous among the tank role.

Sure, but it only lasted for one expansion, if that, and we're still being punished for it...

But, again, what possible warrant is there for that assumption?

You had both together, and it was considered fine, since it relied on a CD and high mob counts. Only after every tank's entire defensive kit was reworked did that go away, without any mention of it having specifically been a problem before, just like there was no mention of Requiescat affecting Clemency's healing having been a particular problem (yet it was removed), or Inner Beast / Steel Cyclone themselves self-healing (yet their healing was removed).

If A and B both existed just fine together, how could B possibly be given as the reason for removing A?

That'd be like saying the Oath Gauge killed Requiescat-Clemency or that the Beast Gauge cost Warrior its being able to heal directly from Wrath skills.

[Tint]

Considering the entire DA/Abyssal spam took 3 skills, one of which had a longer cooldown than Bloodwhetting I personally view what WAR is doing now to be even more absurd than what DRK used to do with that.

DRK could keep the DA Abyssal spam up like forever with Hard Slash > Syphon Strike > Dark Arts > Abyssal Drain > repeat.

Sure the dps were low, but you could keep aggro and do massive pulls even when everything was on cooldown.

[Absurdity]

DRK could keep the DA Abyssal spam up like forever with Hard Slash > Syphon Strike > Dark Arts > Abyssal Drain > repeat.

Sure the dps were low, but you could keep aggro and do massive pulls even when everything was on cooldown.

You could actually just do TBN (to get 50 Blood on barrier break) > DA > Abyssal until your MP ran low > Blood Weapon > Delirium and watch your MP go back to full to continue the DA > Abyssal spam.

Old Blood weapon gave you MP for every enemy hit with physical damage, so a single Delirium was enough to instantly get your MP back up.


Sure it required more button inputs but unlike Bloodwhetting you could keep it up for pretty much the entire pull.