Tank balance and what CBU3 wants to do with job balance

[Vanitax]

I really don't understand what dev team wants to do with the job balance.

On one hand, we have magical DPS situation where BLM got buffed to the point it can deal more or less the same damage as a SAM. On the other hand, we have tanks situation where PLD GNB and WAR got buffed to keep them in line with DRK, in other words, all deal more or less the same damage.

So, I really want to know what's the point of playing a DRK or PLD when we have a job as WAR that has:

• Best survivability (raw healing, HoT, good mit, shields)
• Best rDPS and aDPS unless GNB crits hard
• Low Ability per Minute (APM)
• One of the easiest rotations in game
• Shortest cooldown on its invuln

Was the damage buff really needed? Except for PLD who didn't eat well this expansion besides being the poster guy, tanks were fine back then.

DRK:

• Highest APM
• A shield that punishes your DPS if not used at the right time
• Raw mitigation. No heals or regens.
• But if party aligns its buffs, and you know to play it you get rewarded with a high DPS during burst which is a great for raiding

GNB was already at the same level as DRK, and it was rewarding if you could fit your CDs in No Mercy window.

And PLD it's the only justifiable

I know job difficulty is personal and subjective, but I really don't understand what's their point to make these changes when we have caster role having a huge difference that could be justified by their job complexity and party utility.

• RDM has infinite MP and insta rez that could justify its low DPS despise requiring optimization with its positioning and melee combo timing
• BLM it's a hard job for prog but once you know where to position yourself and how to greed in the right places you get rewarded with the highest DPS
• SMN is super easy and friendly for everyone, can rez and insta cast it every minute but doesn't have as much utility as RDM, so we could understand the gap between it and the latter mentioned job

But when it comes to tanks if the solution is to make them deal the same DPS then make them have the same utility and sustainability (pls don't, do not make the job identity more plain and rotations more brain-dead) so we don't end having PF full of WARs, or we can have different tanks fitting for different situations: before I'd have brought a WAR to Criterion or a 4 player to EO since we don't have enough party buffs. Same for dungeons and normal content, WAR and PLD fitted better, while DRK shined a lot in savage and Ultimate.

[Oizen]

I don't think a WAR damage buff was out of the question, I just think they went too far with it. The questionable buff to me was GNB, which was already outperforming DRK in the high end. The big difference that people didn't notice is that fight design hurts GNB way more than DRK, and DRK gains so much from downtime, while GNB is hurt by it. As a result P8S and TOP ended up being DRK fights. (also the suicide strat)

In most sandbag constant uptime content, GNB was out damaging DRK. So they basically just buffed the strongest tank in the game. Its pretty confusing.

In terms of PLD and WAR, it seem to me that PLD is being taxed for its utility, but WAR isn't. So I don't really think they have any solid plan for balancing here.

[Vanitax]

I don't think a WAR damage buff was out of the question, I just think they went too far with it. The questionable buff to me was GNB, which was already outperforming DRK in the high end. The big difference that people didn't notice is that fight design hurts GNB way more than DRK, and DRK gains so much from downtime, while GNB is hurt by it. As a result P8S and TOP ended up being DRK fights. (also the suicide strat)

In most sandbag constant uptime content, GNB was out damaging DRK. So they basically just buffed the strongest tank in the game. Its pretty confusing.

In terms of PLD and WAR, it seem to me that PLD is being taxed for its utility, but WAR isn't. So I don't really think they have any solid plan for balancing here.

Yeah, I def don't get what's their plan because it seems there's none. If someone's else reads, don't get me wrong, the devs make a great job, better than other online games, but that doesn't mean we can't criticize some decisions. I personally think that damage balance should be: more utility = less damage; more damage = less utility and less powerful mitigation.

DRK was great because we have TBN that works as extra DPS if you make it proc and save it for burst windows. No other tank does that, and it really feels unbalanced having the easiest tank according to a lot of people, with a ton of utility and powerful mitigation having the most powerful DPS because it makes the best option for anything :/

I don't mind PF being full of DRKs because at the end they were sacrificing the healing that other tanks have for a greater DPS while also making that extra DPS worthy if they knew how many Edge of Shadows use during odd minutes and when to use the blackest night to have at least 5 (or 6 if you risk over capping too much) for burst window.

[Absurdity]

In terms of PLD and WAR, it seem to me that PLD is being taxed for its utility, but WAR isn't. So I don't really think they have any solid plan for balancing here.

I'm not even sure if PLD is being taxed for utility, I think it's just as likely that they don't have a clue what they're doing anymore.

It took them from 6.2 until now to get Warrior to a point where it isn't underperforming and they somehow managed to overshoot the goal this time, if that is anything to go by maybe Paladin will be in an okay spot by the end of this expansion.

but using the logging website as a means of measuring the effectiveness.

If they would've actually looked at FFLogs to determine balance changes then Gunbreaker would've seen no buffs, it was already beating Dark Knight in a majority of the fights last tier.

[Vanitax]

If they would've actually looked at FFLogs to determine balance changes then Gunbreaker would've seen no buffs, it was already beating Dark Knight in a majority of the fights last tier.

It always depends on what DPS metric you look at. DRK was the king of aDPS, second came GNB and then WAR and PLD.

[RyuDragnier]

It always depends on what DPS metric you look at. DRK was the king of aDPS, second came GNB and then WAR and PLD.

From the current clears, which is pretty early in the tier, DRK is beaten by WAR and GNB in aDPS in 3/5 fights. In terms of rDPS, it is the lowest tank in all 5 fights. Possibility for change in the statistics by the end of the month as more people get BiS, but as of right now it looks like it's getting outclassed by almost every tank. Again, very early in the tier, this could change.

[fulminating]

Is paladin the easiest now? I don’t think any tanks bar blue mage really have an especially high difficulty bar though.
I think they messed up by not buffing fc/pr/ic and instead buffing the storm finishers ages ago, and their reluctance to nerf jobs, now both are buffed so it’s overcorrected a bit. No idea what they were thinking with gunbreaker, it had so much going for it already. I’m pretty curious as to how they project the impact of their changes internally too, there’s a few that have felt like they’re trying to zero in on their goal but using the logging website as a means of measuring the effectiveness.

[Vanitax]

Is paladin the easiest now? I don’t think any tanks bar blue mage really have an especially high difficulty bar though.

If we're honest, tanks are not known for having a hard rotation. Even GNB, and its tight buff window, is something easy to understand. Maybe DRK is tricky for some when it comes to optimization and MP usage but nothing hard at the end, at least compared with DPS rotation. Now with that said, imo between tanks WAR and PLD are head-to-head. PLD has more abilities execution per minute since it has Circle of Scorn and Expiacion that must be refreshed every 30s and every 60s put inside a buff window. While WAR doesn't have a DMG buff CD and Infuriate's timing being reduced 5s for every Fell Cleave execution gives it a lot of flexibility.

I think it kinda depends on what kind of player you are. I'm more fond of flexible rotations like DRK and WAR, so I found WAR to be super brain-dead and DRK I can execute it without seeing my hotbar since I've been maining it since EW release.

[RyuDragnier]

I really feel they need to cut back on the sustain WAR and PLD have. GNB's should be the gold standard that all tanks should reach, where it's strong, but not strong enough to invalidate having a healer or make content too easy.

WAR's Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash should be reworked into giving an HP shield that can go up to 50% of the person's max HP, that way it's just a move that can buy time, not completely trivialize content. Shake It Off should be losing its regen.

PLD's spells should all have a 300 cure potency instead of 400. Holy Shelltron and Intervention should have a 200 cure potency instead of 250.

[Renathras]

I really feel they need to cut back on the sustain WAR and PLD have. GNB's should be the gold standard that all tanks should reach, where it's strong, but not strong enough to invalidate having a healer or make content too easy.

WAR's Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash should be reworked into giving an HP shield that can go up to 50% of the person's max HP, that way it's just a move that can buy time, not completely trivialize content. Shake It Off should be losing its regen.

PLD's spells should all have a 300 cure potency instead of 400. Holy Shelltron and Intervention should have a 200 cure potency instead of 250.

I kind of agree with this.

WAR being able to heal other party members MAKES NO SENSE. No part of its class fantasy is "healer". It SHOULD have decent sustain, but as you say, reducing/shielding incoming damage (largely to itself) should be how that works.

Conversely, part of PLD's class fantasy IS that it has (a few) White Magic spells. Basically Cure 2, Holy, and Glare, which is what Clemency, Holy Circle, and Holy Spirit are, respectively. The first should be (and is) a DPS loss to use since you're trading a turn of damage for a turn of healing (to speak in classical FF game terms), while the latter two should be DPS gains over your normal attacks at the cost of MP. Which they are: 1-2-3 has an AVERAGE damage of 300 per hit (900 for the combo of 3 strikes = 300 per hit averaged out), of which Holy Spirit does 350, so a slight gain, which is upped to 450 used as Divine Might procs. This is a pretty good system. Largely same deal with their AOE: 1-2 averages 135 per hit (270 for the combo) vs Holy Circle's 200 when buffed. ARGUABLY the base damage should be 150 (> 135) not 100, but the general point still comes across well enough.

The self-healing of those spells probably should be lowered a bit (since Holy and Glare aren't exactly known for their healing), or alternatively, the healing removed but Clemency being given some kind of Holy Might effect to let you use it for sustain for big pulls where damage is less important than sustain and enmity (e.g. wall-to-walls). Though on that point, PLD should REALLY get a low level (like level 30) pre-Clemency that upgrades to Clemency later (like Rage of Halone into Royal Authority), considering a lot of lower level content, PLD has no self sustain. It has no sustain until Clemency at 58, and none as part of its rotation until Holy Spirit at 64.


Contrast the other Tanks, where WAR and DRK get theirs at level 26 (Storm's Path and Souleater), and GNB gets its at level 4 (Brutal Shell). This gives sync or leveling PLDs (*cough* Palace of the Dead solo runs *cough*) a far harder time of it. And before you mock PotD - note that there was a time when PLD could Cross-Class CNJ abilities Cure, Stoneskin, Protect, and Raise (though didn't get the trait to use it in combat). So pre-SB PLD runs of PotD, they'd have Cure, Stoneskin (10% HP), and Protect (10% damage reduction) availble to them at those level ranges where now they have nothing of the sort.

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As to the thread as a whole:

- GNB was in a pretty good spot, so not sure why they changed it. Maybe had something to do with TOP since the forced downtime favored DRK but hurt the other Tanks, including GNB?

- PLD needed a buff, and I think everyone knows that. It was doing EVEN LESS damage than BEFORE the rework, which made no sense as the rework was (partially) supposed to address how it was already doing too little damage. It somehow got even more button bloat but did even less damage. So the buff was absolutely needed, there. PLD was the RDM of Tanks (and arguably still is), but unlike RDM, it's actually getting some buffs to bring it in line to where it should be.

- DRK was already doing fine. DRK struggles in easy content, which isn't so much "struggles" as "actually needs a Healer", which isn't some damning indictment on DRK so much as it is on the other Tanks having too much sustain/healing. DRK didn't need any buffs (neither did BLM), as it was already the gold standard and the "automatic pick" Tank for most high end content with the other slot being a contest of GNB (which usually won) or WAR (if you needed more flexibility) or PLD (if you didn't have either of the other two available). DRK got a longstanding problem fixed (Living Dead) and in such a way that actually makes it a powerful and useful CD now, and it has an extra personal mitigation vs the other Tanks as well. DRK has been eating good this expansion.

- I have no idea what is going on with WAR, though. WAR is a Tank, party healer, and now DPSer all in one. It's like Vanilla WoW all over again if Warrior was ALSO a healer. It's frankly ridiculous at this point. While it IS true that WAR's self-sustain isn't AS big of an issue in high end content as it is in 4 mans, it wasn't super far behind DRK/GNB, so the damage buffs might have over done it. And they also did this after the last couple patches of buffing WAR's healing - the Divine Veil change was needed, the Shake It Off change was not. I honestly have no idea at all what's going on with WAR.