So does every hate new PLD now?

[RyuDragnier]

Okay but the design has been in the game for years and every tank has the same thing where they spam lmao but you take issue with Atonement? Uhm okay then?

No other tank attack is spammed THAT much. Go ahead and tell me what other tank has you press the same attack button 3 times in a row after every single combo.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

No other tank attack is spammed THAT much. Go ahead and tell me what other tank has you press the same attack button 3 times in a row after every single combo.

I mean, bloodspiller spam is three times in a row, used to be 5 or more in ShB, fell cleave is three times in a row also used to be 5 or more in ShB, gnashing combo is same button spammed in a row, every tank spams buttons in consecutive order, Confiteor and Blades combo is spammed also... and you definitely exaggerate how much it's spammed I'll be completely honest, and while it has lost the bulk of it's optimisation value from when it was first added, it still allows for a certain degree of flexibility to time HS usages for disengagements, or after downtime can be used as a buffer if any stacks remain to help realign with raid buffs. Definitely more pros to the ability than cons I'll be honest.

[cjbeagle]

Aside from 3 times in a row though, aren't PLD using Atonement 8 times per minute? That's...a lot of the same attack.
The Gnashing Fang "combo" is the same button now, but GNB is only pushing it 6 times per minute, they get to pop Continuation after each use, the potency escalates, and each attack has a unique animation.
Bloodspiller spam only happens once a minute - same with Fell Cleave - as part of the 1m burst that spam correlates with PLD's bladeworks spam - Atonement spam is above and beyond.

imo bladeworks feels fine - hits hard (feels impactful), unique animations per use (isn't visually redundant), and you only use it 4 times a minute.
imo BLM Fire IV spam feels fine too even though doesn't have unique animations and is part of the normal rotation as well just because it hits hard - it's something you WANT to spam.
Atonement doesn't hit hard, is visually redundant, and you use it 8 times a minute - almost as much BLMs spam Fire IV.

I don't mind hitting the same button 3 times in a row as long as it feels good to use, but Atonement doesn't - it needs some animation treatment and/or a potency motive imo.

[Mithron]

Nope, still hate the new PLD 6 months later.

[HyperiusUltima]

On the contrary, I don't really hate or love PLD in particular. Its usability/accessibility is especially good given the stringent oGCD bloat of DRK/GNB, though WAR fills this void particularly well.

If anything, I think they need to think carefully with how they handle PLD next expansion. Main reason being how screwed up things were with Fight Design this expansion as well as PLD's kit conflicting with the "meta" 2m Burst Window they perceived. All of that could've simply been avoided if they took more time in the RnD department to hammer out fight inconsistencies using the weakest and strongest compositions in the game to see if it can be done.

[primarisgoazrr]

I actually really like it. I like that I don’t have to rely on anyone for Divine veil, have Bulwark back is nice, getting to use Holy Spirit and Holy Circle more frequently is super nice, and the rotation itself just feels a bit “faster” if that makes sense. That being said there’s still a bit to be improved on I.e. Goring Blade, Atonement, Cover and Shield Bash mainly.

Goring Blade should be a ranged magic attack like Holy Spirit and the two should combo together. I think having a 5-part combo would serve us a lot better then having a 1 min GCD.

Atonement should be a 2 stack oGCD. I would honestly like it if this was made a ranged magic skill too, really lean into that PLD ranged uptime. Just making the skill an oGCD would be enough for now though.

Cover and Shield Bash should just be merged with Intervention. If you dash to an enemy it should stun them and if you dash to an ally it should apply cover.

I think the above would make it better. The changes are good overall, they just need to improve it now.

[Rithy255]

It's still really mixed, I would say I'm surprised there wasn't a lot of changes for 6.4 considering it's design feeling off and the amount of buttons the job has, but I'm not really.
I guess the recent atonement changes were decent, again I loved the defensive changes personally they weren't perfect but a good step in the right direction

I think if I was going to Design Paladin for 7.0 I'd make some changes such as:
1. Making Goring blade actually have a reason to be apart of the kit (not Ogcd, it really doesn't "fix" the issue with it being a bloat ability)
2. Change up how many times you're pressing atonement, right now it feels unfun to just spam that ability.
3. Do more with PLD's "utility" skills such as making Clemency a OCGD MP management skill, Such giving more use cases to Cover and just in general buffing its utility, make shield bash a Cone OCGD that replaces damage on PLD's gap closer while stunning in a aoe cone, Let plds gap closer do no damage and charge to party members too.

I'm Fine with hallowed ground being the longest Invul and PLD having lowest DPS, but give PLD some significant upsides and make sure it isn't behind so much.

[Shurrikhan]

I still hate the loss of rotational Goring Blade, but mostly like the rest of the changes.


Ideally, I would have preferred to replace the Divine Might procs with Clemency, Holy Shock, and Holy Circle having variable --based on %MP-- potency, cast times (0 seconds at full MP), and MP costs (e.g., 1k to 4k), with Req making them free-casts that count as if casted from 100% MP.

Perhaps also have Fight or Flight grant 3 stacks of Sword Oath if it'd accelerate and smooth out the rotation sufficiently, but I think the main thing would just be to be okay with occasionally clipping our DoT some and not to (effectively) require the 4 Holy Shock casts before the Confiteor Combo.

Heck, I'd have been fine with BoV and GB being able to afflict a target simultaneously, if it came down to it.

[Rithy255]

I still hate the loss of rotational Goring Blade, but mostly like the rest of the changes.


Ideally, I would have preferred to replace the Divine Might procs with Clemency, Holy Shock, and Holy Circle having variable --based on %MP-- potency, cast times (0 seconds at full MP), and MP costs (e.g., 1k to 4k), with Req making them free-casts that count as if casted from 100% MP.

I feel like the magic healing on Paladin is kind of ugh, theirs so much of it and the sustain is really strong but at the same time it feels useless when you don't need it and out of your hands, Removing Pld's self healing from magic and reducing/changing Shelltrons sustain up for more controlled sustain on Something like Clemency (that's also ocgd) would be really nice for MT/OT PLD.

Right now (In terms of "healing") it feels like PLD's more selfish then warrior? with it's healing which is kind of weird.. Not to say paladin lacks group/target healing I just think the Self sustain could be toned down alot for targetable sustain such as getting a free clemency here and there every minute, Warrior should also stop having teammate healing personally, also reduce its aoe sustain capabilities even if that's not important for savage ect. Healers shouldn't expect to afk because they got funny infinite self healing axe tank.

[Shurrikhan]

Right now (In terms of "healing") it feels like PLD's more selfish then warrior? with it's healing which is kind of weird.. Not to say paladin lacks group/target healing I just think the Self sustain could be toned down alot for targetable sustain such as getting a free clemency here and there every minute, Warrior should also stop having teammate healing personally, also reduce its aoe sustain capabilities even if that's not important for savage ect. Healers shouldn't expect to afk because they got funny infinite self healing axe tank.

Aye. I'd always thought Warrior's self-healing should be more akin to just its party-support in XI -- as a sort of strikeleader / warleader / bannerlord. Instead it's just had this insane amount of single-target ally-targetable healing available to it for the last couple expansions...

(Copying over that one post from the other thread real quick.)

I'd like to rein back any and all forms of sustain that neither come at cost nor have any real means of optimization to them (beyond AoEing where you might otherwise ST in 2-target scenarios, in BW/NF's case):

Warrior

• Undo the lastest potency buffs to Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, and Inner Chaos.
• Inner Beast is now granted at level 30, and Thrill of Battle instead at 35.
• Further nerf Storm's Path and Storm's Eye potency by 20 prior to Melee Mastery. Siphon that potency per minute into Inner Beast (e.g., to 440 potency, up from 330). (Fell Cleave was already buffed, so it can remain as is.) Buff Steel Cyclone to 220 potency.
• Axe the self-heal on Storm's Path. Have Inner Beast instead heal for 440 cure potency and Steel Cyclone hit for 110 potency per target. Fell Cleave and Decimate retain, but do not increase, these bonuses.
• Return the per-hit flat self-healing component of BW/NF to, again, healing for 50% of damage dealt. Let it rip on Fell Cleave + Primal Rush + Inner Chaos x2, but simply comboing should hardly do squat.

Paladin

• Shelltron replaced by Aegis, which grants a barrier equal to 10% of the target's maximum HP and grants 25% mitigation while the barrier is active (and lingering for 1 second thereafter).
• Aegis is now granted at level 30, and Spirit's Within at 35.
• The level 62 skill, Intervention, is now instead simply a trait that allows Aegis to be used on others and causes it to last up to 2 second longer for each defensive ability you have active.
• Clemency is now granted at level 40. Prominence is instead a class skill, granted automatically. Chivalry has been moved to level 40.
• At level 58, Paladin now instead augments Aegis with two additional effects: "Grants MP upon fully absorbing an enemy hit" and "Grants Silver Shield | Silver Shield: Your next use of Clemency will not trigger the global recast time."
• Shelltron Mastery, now Aegis Mastery, upgrades Aegis to Divine Aegis, which causes a second barrier to take the first's place when broken, and extends the maximum duration to 8 seconds.
• Cover no longer consumes gauge by default and now grants an aura to the covered ally that mimics the total multiplicative mitigation of the Paladin's active defensive skills. (This leaves a buff also on the Paladin itself, which causes the transferred mitigation to updates whenever there is a change to the Paladin's defenses.)
• Cover now also grants the Paladin a stack of Oath of the Ceaseless Guardian. This allows the use of Guardian while Cover is on cooldown, swapping the hotkey's use automatically. Guardian is otherwise identical to Cover but has no cooldown and instead costs 50 Gauge and a charge of Oath of the Ceaseless Guardian. Stacks last for 2 minutes.
• Divine Magic Mastery II removed.
• Blade of Faith, Blade of Truth, and Blade of Valor no longer cost MP (since that would otherwise reduce one's cure potency available per minute).

Dark Knight

• Bloodspiller swaps places with Salted Earth, therefore being introduced much earlier in the game.
• Abyssal Drain swaps places with Dark Mind, therefore being introduced much earlier in the game.
• Bloodspiller now heals for its damage dealt, but Souleater no longer heals.
• Bloodspiller now deals 40% of its damage to all enemies in a 3-yalm radius around its target.
• Quietus now deals 50% greater potency to its first target struck (300 to first target, 200 to all others).
• Quietus now inflicts its victims with Quietus for 12 seconds, causing them to grant the Dark Knight 100 MP each time they are struck by an attack from the Dark Knight.
• Carve and Spit now inflicts its victims with Carved Soul for 12 seconds, causing them to grant the Dark Knight 100 MP each time they are struck by an attack and causing them to leave a shade instantly and another if killed while afflicted by Carved Soul. The Dark Knight can move through these to gain 10% HP and 10% MP.
• Abyssal Drain now inflicts a debuff for 10 seconds that causes the Dark Knight to heal for 25% of damage dealt to enemies and to instantly restore 10% of the Dark Knight's HP if the victim dies while under the effect of Abyssal Drain.
• Dark Arts has been revised. It now nullifies a granular amount of MP cost and is simply displayed on your MP bar alike to a barrier effect (on the HP bar).
• At level 30, Dark Knight gains access to Shadowskin, which consumes up to 1500 to 3000 MP (using half your current MP, therefore reaching full effect at 60% MP) to reduce incoming damage by 20% for 3 to 6 seconds, based on MP spent. For every % of max HP's worth of damage nullified gain 1% max MP's worth of Dark Arts, to a maximum of the original amount of MP spent.
• The Blackest Night is now an upgrade to Shadowskin, retaining the 20% mitigation effect (though the duration can no longer fade before the barrier does), and now consumes 1500 to 3000 MP (using half your current MP) in order to generate a barrier of %HP equal to 80% of %MP spent (3000 MP = 30% of MP = 30% eHP). For every % of max HP's worth of damage nullified gain 1% max MP's worth of Dark Arts, to a maximum of the original amount of MP spent.
• Delirium no longer grants free casts of Bloodspiller or Quietus. Instead, for 12 seconds, it increases Attack Speed by 15% and doubles MP and HP generated while halving the Blood costs of Bloodspiller and Quietus.
• Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain each gain a second charge and have their cooldown reduced to 40 seconds at level 84.
• Dark Mind now reduces all damage taken by 10% (and magic damage taken by a further 10%).
• Oblation is now an upgrade to Dark Mind, allowing it to be used on any ally, with a second charge and only a 40-second recast time.
• Carve and Spit, Abyssal Drain, and Shadowbringer now each cost 3k MP. They have been slightly buffed in compensation; the remainder of the lost potency is covered only via DRK's additional MP generation.
• Living Shadow now grants a temporary charge each of Abyssal Drain, Carve and Spit, and Shadowbringer, to be used via the Living Shadow. These temporary charges take priority over your own, have no animation lock / uptime cost, and cost no MP, though they will have only half the normal damage. If not consumed before Living Shadow ends, they will each be rapidly cast in succession when 1 second of duration remains. While Living Shadow is active, it will also duplicate each of your attacks, for half damage. It is now summoned far more quickly/responsively.

Gunbreaker

• Rather than Brutal Shell granting a barrier, Burst Strike and Fated Circle now afflicts its target with a suppression effect, causing its auto-attack damage to be reduced by the lesser of 50% until having consumed damage equal to that dealt by Burst Strike / Fated Circle. This effect does not stack or accumulate.
• Continuation and Hypervelocity inflict an identical effect to that of Burst Strike, but accumulating. This stacks with the effect of Burst Strike.
• Heart of Corundom is no longer an upgrade to Heart of Stone, but rather a secondary action. Heart of Stone Mastery upgrades the mitigation of Heart of Stone directly, while Heart of Corundom, which replaces HoS while HoS is active and on cooldown, causes the beneficiary to heal for their damage mitigated by HoS over the last 3 seconds. (In this way, it becomes more timing dependent, rather than less.)