Zodiark's Codex entry what do we think about it?

[Brinne]

It still would have been a life form that had souls. Which if they and the rest who were pro 3rd sacrifice still held the same view on souls and the underworld then it doesn't make sense to just replace souls with other souls. If the 1st two sacrifices and being tempered by Zodiark changed said view then sure they wouldn't see the new life as the same.

I think if we're going to pinpoint a certain event that probably changed their views on "using souls" (because Elpis, Pandaemonium, and Emet's short story with the Phoinix establish that Ancients, and their culture, strongly discourage messing with souls and view it as entirely up to the planet), it was the Final Days, in which they needed to utilize souls in their last resort of creating Zodiark to save the world. They were desperate enough to break what multiple pieces of the text reinforced again and again was, throughout their history, a serious taboo.

As I said, my overall view is that the writers are almost certainly never going to go into detail about the sacrifices for the sake of wanting to keep everyone likable and sympathetic, but for a diegetic conversation, animals do have souls - the requirement of a soul is simply "natural life embraced by the planet." This is reinforced by P9, recently, where the first boss devours a behemoth soul as one of its mechanics and acts accordingly.

This, of course, doesn't disclude the possibility of the souls being "more" than animals, but since the "new life" was stated to be created by Zodiark - aka, Themis - it actually does strike me as a bit weird to suggest that it must have been some form of sapient people. Because the shape of the life would have been guided by Themis, and then the plan was to "cultivate" it over a long period of time until the time was right to offer up "a portion" of it and return to how things were before the apocalypse.

I think I said this a long, long time ago in a thread far, far away, but if I had to make a guess, based on the description of the sheer damage the second sacrifice was meant to address - the planet was devoid of all life, the seas were poisoned, no wind, etc - whatever "new lives" Zodiark/Themis would have seeded would logically have been, at least initially, pretty rudimentary in order to set up an ecological system to get going again from the ground up. You don't make predator animals without first making prey animals, and you don't make prey animals without first making flora, you don't make flora without..., etc, etc. Just to at least get the basic elements functioning again. To me, this would fit with Shade Hythlodaeus's description of "tiny lives sprouting."

Therefore, this initial life, once stabilized, could thereafter be "cultivated" and guided and gradually shaped by the Ancients afterwards how they saw fit. The debate, therefore, was which direction in which to "cultivate" it - towards a form of life that could legitimately inherit the world from the Ancients (and to Venat, unspoken to anyone else, probably a form of life that could battle Meteion) - or as material to replace the Zodiark souls and free the sacrifices. In other words, at the time of the arguments and the Sundering, the actual content of the "third sacrifice" probably was not even been materially existent, since the Convocation's plan to cultivate it, guide its evolution and development, towards their chosen purpose never had a chance to meaningfully advance because they were busy fighting Hydaelyn.

For me personally, in terms of my own values, it's honestly really hard for me to get outraged at the base premise of "use up life and souls to save our people" with the understanding that, yes, animals are established to have souls. We don't know enough to say definitively that they weren't, or rather, wouldn't be People Souls - maybe Zodiark does require Specifically People Souls. It's not established, simply "souls", and we're free to make guesses as to the rest. But in theory, I can't really see a meaningful distinction between "sacrificing life" for that purpose as opposed to "sacrificing life" for my dinner tonight.

Which comes down to Venat's ultimate objection not really having anything to do with the sacrifices themselves. It made no difference to her concerns what kind of souls they were. Her problem was with the Ancients' way of life, and the direction she believed their "chosen course" would progress towards (Meteion's report of the Nibirun.)

[SannaR]

I think if we're going to pinpoint a certain event that probably changed their views on "using souls" (because Elpis, Pandaemonium, and Emet's short story with the Phoinix establish that Ancients, and their culture, strongly discourage messing with souls and view it as entirely up to the planet), it was the Final Days, in which they needed to utilize souls in their last resort of creating Zodiark to save the world. They were desperate enough to break what multiple pieces of the text reinforced again and again was, throughout their history, a serious taboo.

As I said, my overall view is that the writers are almost certainly never going to go into detail about the sacrifices for the sake of wanting to keep everyone likable and sympathetic, but for a diegetic conversation, animals do have souls - the requirement of a soul is simply "natural life embraced by the planet." This is reinforced by P9, recently, where the first boss devours a behemoth soul as one of its mechanics and acts accordingly.

This, of course, doesn't disclude the possibility of the souls being "more" than animals, but since the "new life" was stated to be created by Zodiark - aka, Themis - it actually does strike me as a bit weird to suggest that it must have been some form of sapient people. Because the shape of the life would have been guided by Themis, and then the plan was to "cultivate" it over a long period of time until the time was right to offer up "a portion" of it and return to how things were before the apocalypse.

Oh I totally get that we don't know what and probably won't know what that next generation/new life was. Just from the two times we get any reaction to them is that somehow they weren't what at least some of the convocation were expecting. At least when it came to aetherial thickness. Well that's how I perceived it. That they weren't as thick as they were expected to be and that they might have also not looked as they expected to. It's why for me at least it doesn't make sense that you'd want to leave the planet to well a bunch of animals and plants. I'm pretty sure that's how you get Animal House(sort of joking with that).

That while yes anything and anyone can inherit something I still stand on the ground that most people don't outside of fiction leave things to well animals or inanimated objects. Unless done out of spite or to show how whimsical a person was. Unless said flora or fauna was sentient like Frank from Harley Quinn the animated show. Also give us more details about this time frame you cowards. I know they probably will never, but I want it.

[Brinne]

That while yes anything and anyone can inherit something I still stand on the ground that most people don't outside of fiction leave things to well animals or inanimated objects. Unless done out of spite or to show how whimsical a person was. Unless said flora or fauna was sentient like Frank from Harley Quinn the animated show. Also give us more details about this time frame you cowards. I know they probably will never, but I want it.

Well, like I said, my own guess as to what makes the most sense is that... the question of "can they inherit the world as they first appeared, as made by Themis" wasn't the issue. The issue was "do we now guide this life towards something that could/will inherit it" - or, if you want to use kinder phrasing towards Venat's faction, perhaps letting it evolve and take shape naturally however it would, even if it meant evolving into something that would naturally displace the Ancients someday, as opposed to keeping it pruned carefully so as to serve as Zodiark fodder. So nobody, even if the "new life" as it ever materially existed and lived, was suggesting literally letting animals inherit the world. It was more choosing the Let Animals Potentially Evolve Into People direction or Evolve Animals Specifically Into Zodiark Fodder direction.

(Just to keep things clear, I'm not definitively stating it WAS animals, and again, it's possible Zodiark had some unknown MUST BE PEOPLE requirement to function. We do not know. But this is in the hypothetical case that makes the most sense to me with the information we have now.)

Again, the framing is that Hydaelyn represented "the future" and Zodiark represented "the past" in this conflict. Both of those exclude, and as factions, both were willing to sacrifice, "the present."

Oh I totally get that we don't know what and probably won't know what that next generation/new life was. Just from the two times we get any reaction to them is that somehow they weren't what at least some of the convocation were expecting. At least when it came to aetherial thickness.

Hmm, I don't remember this - where did you get this impression?

[SannaR]

Well, like I said, my own guess as to what makes the most sense is that... the question of "can they inherit the world as they first appeared, as made by Themis" wasn't the issue. The issue was "do we now guide this life towards something that could/will inherit it" - or, if you want to use kinder phrasing towards Venat's faction, perhaps letting it evolve and take shape naturally however it would, even if it meant evolving into something that would naturally displace the Ancients someday, as opposed to keeping it pruned carefully so as to serve as Zodiark fodder. So nobody, even if the "new life" as it ever materially existed and lived, was suggesting literally letting animals inherit the world. It was more choosing the Let Animals Potentially Evolve Into People direction or Evolve Animals Specifically Into Zodiark Fodder direction.

Oh I know that you aren't saying it was animals. Just some in the past maybe to make the convocation look less icky or whatever would always go for the it was plants and animals angle. It is hard to tell if the 1st two sacrifices had any kind of role they played (post acting as fuel). They did seem to dislike Fandaniel trying to assert control over them though. So they might had more to do than be in limbo. I also understand that they could evolve into people or just Zodiark fodder. Yet we know if they weren't people it'd take a bit for them to evolve enough into plant/animal people. Just look at the Ixal they used to be able to fly, but over five thousand years their arm feathers shrunk dramatically making them loose that ability.

I got that impression from shade Hythlodaeus and if Emet's convocation memory stone is about the new life Zodiark popped out then to me both hint that what came out wasn't what they were expecting. Course another problem that I don't think anyone has brought up before is we don't know a quantity for the new life. I know in the long run it wouldn't matter. But if said life wasn't meant to be more than just give the planet a kick start and was even as big as the amount of the 2nd sacrifice then the only reason to me at least to cultivate them is due to their thinness in aether. Which I mean why didn't Zodiark make em chunky? After all he should have been able to do so.

For me it comes down to A) they didn't make em chunky cause that's not how creations/familiars normally were made or B ) they for whatever reason couldn't pop out chunky aether bodies. Even after being allowed to rewrite the laws of the star. If B then one can assume there's a problem that doesn't allow for that. If A then they needed to (and obviously didn't get time to do so) stop thinking that new life that they make needs to be creation thin.

[Brinne]

I got that impression from shade Hythlodaeus and if Emet's convocation memory stone is about the new life Zodiark popped out then to me both hint that what came out wasn't what they were expecting.

I glanced back over Hythlodaeus's dialogue, and I might be missing something, but I'm not seeing the hint you're mentioning - just, again, that what Zodiark manifested was "tiny lives sprouting." As for Emet's Convocation stone quote:

Gone is the brilliant radiance of life, replaced by the sickly glow of malformed creatures.

Is this to be how it ends? For we who loved the star with all our being?

No. I will not suffer it to be so.

This is very clearly talking about the Sundered, not the "new life." For one thing, it's using the very specific language he always uses to describe the Sundered across several scenes, and there's no reason to correlate the "new life" to be "how it ends" for the Ancients as a whole.

I know in the long run it wouldn't matter. But if said life wasn't meant to be more than just give the planet a kick start and was even as big as the amount of the 2nd sacrifice then the only reason to me at least to cultivate them is due to their thinness in aether. Which I mean why didn't Zodiark make em chunky? After all he should have been able to do so.

I feel like I'm maybe not quite parsing what you're saying here. But (correct me or clarify, if needed, of course) you're saying you don't understand why Zodiark would make life that would require cultivation over long periods of time to be used as a proper energy source for him, well:

- From the "Zodiark fodder" POV, for one, it's like any other healing or growing process. You can't just instantly do it 1:1, it would defeat the entire purpose to essentially cut off your arm to replace your arm. Since the idea here would be to (potentially) replace Zodiark's power source, you wouldn't use up Zodiark's energy to create... a replacement for the same amount of Zodiark's energy. Instead of directly making full-grown vegetables, you make the lower-requirement seeds that can grow, independently of you, into vegetables that you eat later for a net energy gain that would allow Zodiark to keep functioning without needing to keep the Ancients locked in.

- From the "restore the planet" POV - (again, for the plan as it was established in the text - you can argue whatever you believe about them perhaps being on a slippery slope, or whatever) it's not solely about "aether." To maintain a living world, one that could stay healthy even if "a portion" of it was offered to Zodiark - one vibrant and "bursting with vitality," as Hythlodaeus put it - you also need diversity, different shapes of life, etc. So again, starting with the rudimentary forms of life that would pave the way to grow into and branch out into at least the map for a new and healthy ecosystem - rather than asking Themis to micro-manage everything top to bottom - is what makes the most sense to me because the primary goal was to let the world heal and support life again, first and foremost. Reclaiming the souls was always the secondary goal once the first was firmly stabilized and safe - hence why Venat is comfortable saying the Convocation shouldn't be spoken ill of, and is only doing what it truly sees as best for the world, like herself.

[SannaR]

- From the "restore the planet" POV - (again, for the plan as it was established in the text - you can argue whatever you believe about them perhaps being on a slippery slope, or whatever) it's not solely about "aether." To maintain a living world, one that could stay healthy even if "a portion" of it was offered to Zodiark - one vibrant and "bursting with vitality," as Hythlodaeus put it - you also need diversity, different shapes of life, etc. So again, starting with the rudimentary forms of life that would pave the way to grow into and branch out into at least the map for a new and healthy ecosystem - rather than asking Themis to micro-manage everything top to bottom - is what makes the most sense to me because the primary goal was to let the world heal and support life again, first and foremost. Reclaiming the souls was always the secondary goal once the first was firmly stabilized and safe - hence why Venat is comfortable saying the Convocation shouldn't be spoken ill of, and is only doing what it truly sees as best for the world, like herself.

Hmmm. Then I'm not sure where it was. As I do remember getting said impression from someone's reaction to the pre- sundered new life as not being what they were expecting. Kind of like how if you baked something and it didn't come out as you hoped it would all due to you having accidentally over aerating the batter. You parsed the rest correctly. As what we get shown are the Ancients able to create things that wouldn't be at seed or seedling level.

That if the reason for the need of cultivation was only due to their thinness in aether then why did Zodiark make them thin in the 1st place? You wouldn't need to cultivate as much if you started with something thicker. Like plants some you can transplant either from plug-ins or transplant after they've grown some from seed. Meanwhile things like your root vegetables don't really transplant at all if you have to well uproot them so that others can go and plant them in their garden.

And yet one would think Zodiark should be able to at least do more than pop out something that had such thin aetheric density. Unless as I said the reason why was because they didn't think to make it be thicker than their normal creations. Or if they did think and try to make the new life as thick in aether as the ancients themselves, but they ended up regular creation thin then maybe there was a problem. Which we wouldn't know about as time and well plot didn't get to see if the thin aether density was accidental or not.