What if Tanks were designed like Healers?

[Sparkthor]

There is a base reason tanks are not designed the same way healer are : Tanking abilities need to have some cooldown, while healing ones need to have a solution where there is nothing left. Also, Tanks are physical melee jobs, and base FFXIV design en physical melee jobs is combo. While healer are mage, and mage base design in FFXIV is spam the same spell again and again, and dot. Even the SUM in HW was mostly Ruin spam. A bit less because bio and miasma were on 18 and 24s duration, but after tri-disaster you were going Ruin until bio fade out, and when going for Bahamut transe were Spam Ruin III.

In your exemple, Guard and Wall would be dead/trap actions. Even more dead/trap than Tank stance in SB or current gcd heal actions, while at least, healing GCD is extremely situationnal and mostly something you'ill see in progress/failure recovery than current boss routine.

What it would be nice to do is both reducing healing kits of healer, to make them more reliant of GCD heal, and giving some more engaging DPS tools outside nuke/dot. If they had to do mone thing is giving a more flashy burst phase (we are talking the current state of the game), because the other solution : making bosses hit so hard that healer cannot do anything else than healing is not gonna happened.

[ForsakenRoe]

I like the part where instead of Fast Blade becoming Riot Blade, it's just Fast Blade II, very accurate to the healer design

Tanking abilities need to have some cooldown, while healing ones need to have a solution where there is nothing left.

So why is it that a healer can spam every OGCD they like, and still have Medica or Cure2 as the 'fallback option', but when a tank spams out every OGCD defensive they like, they're left dry when the next TB comes and splats them? Why does the healer not have to suffer from 'oops I spent everything now I'm boned' punishment? Can't say 'tank dying doesn't cause a wipe' because often times it very much does spiral into a wipe

What it would be nice to do is both reducing healing kits of healer, to make them more reliant of GCD heal, and giving some more engaging DPS tools outside nuke/dot. If they had to do mone thing is giving a more flashy burst phase (we are talking the current state of the game), because the other solution : making bosses hit so hard that healer cannot do anything else than healing is not gonna happened.

Go do P10, or better yet, P10S. Harrowing Hell forces the healers to spam GCDs because it hits so hard. It's not fun. Not even remotely fun. It's just 'use basically every mit across the party, press Cure3/Succor/Helios/E-Prognosis 7 times'. How anyone can honestly think 'make the bosses hit harder so we GCD heal more' is going to lead to more fun gameplay boggles my mind, because I DO fight bosses that make me GCD heal more. The fun doesn't come from pressing those GCD heals, it comes from finding ways to avoid them, despite the higher incoming damage. Dominion was not fun last tier (I was WHM for first clear), J-Waves in TEA was not fun (I was WHM, my job was 'Temp at 5' and cure3 spam), Harrowing Hell was not really that fun (it just required using one braincell to remember 'don't use CDs on the debuff-into-lines bit before HH'). Now, trying to work out how you can get away with doing some Glares DURING Harrowing Hell, that might be a little bit interesting

"But healers are meant to HEAL" -someone, probably.

See, I was thinking earlier, how to describe 'what sets apart a Tank, Healer and a DPS', and the conclusion I came to was 'what are the majority of their OGCD skills dedicated to'. Tanks have a GCD loop, but most of their OGCDs are self or party defensive in nature. DPS have a GCD loop, but most of their OGCDs are either damage, damage amp for themselves, or partywide damage 'roids like Battle Litany or Brotherhood. Healers have a GCD (can't say loop, can I), and their OGCDs are mainly healing, healing amp, HOT, Mitigation, etc.

But, that's the point. it's the OGCDs that are the deciding factor for which role the job belongs to. The GCD loop for the filler is shared across tanks, melee, p-ranged (to an extent, BRD's weird), it's casters and healers that are set apart. And casters get to have their own unique quirks, like everyone's fine with RDM having a proccy system of 4 spells that chain into each other, with Jolt as the 'no procs sadge' backup, or BLM being the 'arcane mage' of the game. But healers are stuck with 'arcane mage' gameplay, without the system that makes arcane mage what it is (burn/conserve phases for MP economy)

TLDR I am once again asking for Dia to be shorter and ONE more GCD action for WHM this is not an outrageously large ask this is in fact the smallest possible ask I can imagine

[ty_taurus]

So why is it that a healer can spam every OGCD they like, and still have Medica or Cure2 as the 'fallback option', but when a tank spams out every OGCD defensive they like, they're left dry when the next TB comes and splats them? Why does the healer not have to suffer from 'oops I spent everything now I'm boned' punishment? Can't say 'tank dying doesn't cause a wipe' because often times it very much does spiral into a wipe

You also can't really say the healer not healing can cause a wipe either, at least not in every case. There are many fights, even 8-man fights where the party can leave both healers dead on the floor and clear with whatever sustain is provided by tanks and DPS.

[Icecylee]

See, I was thinking earlier, how to describe 'what sets apart a Tank, Healer and a DPS', and the conclusion I came to was 'what are the majority of their OGCD skills dedicated to'. Tanks have a GCD loop, but most of their OGCDs are self or party defensive in nature. DPS have a GCD loop, but most of their OGCDs are either damage, damage amp for themselves, or partywide damage 'roids like Battle Litany or Brotherhood. Healers have a GCD (can't say loop, can I), and their OGCDs are mainly healing, healing amp, HOT, Mitigation, etc.

But, that's the point. it's the OGCDs that are the deciding factor for which role the job belongs to. The GCD loop for the filler is shared across tanks, melee, p-ranged (to an extent, BRD's weird), it's casters and healers that are set apart. And casters get to have their own unique quirks, like everyone's fine with RDM having a proccy system of 4 spells that chain into each other, with Jolt as the 'no procs sadge' backup, or BLM being the 'arcane mage' of the game. But healers are stuck with 'arcane mage' gameplay, without the system that makes arcane mage what it is (burn/conserve phases for MP economy)

Dancer chuckling uncomfortably as its heal/mit ogcd numbers get dangerously close to overtaking its damage ogcds.

[Deceptus]

There is a base reason tanks are not designed the same way healer are :

Let me stop you there.

Until enmity was basically non existent (ie how it is today) Tank damage was equivalent to threat so it made sense that tanks were required to do decent damage to maintain a threat level against the DPS (Despite the DPS having multiple threat reducers at the time). Good DPS still snuck up on tanks.

That doesn't exist in any way, shape, or form anymore. Tanks can literally do one button to take threat off of a DPS.

As I've said multiple times before: If tanks were designed like healers they'd riot. Rightfully so. Which is why the current state of healer design is unacceptable to veterans.

[ty_taurus]

Let me stop you there.

Until enmity was basically non existent (ie how it is today) Tank damage was equivalent to threat so it made sense that tanks were required to do decent damage to maintain a threat level against the DPS (Despite the DPS having multiple threat reducers at the time). Good DPS still snuck up on tanks.

That doesn't exist in any way, shape, or form anymore. Tanks can literally do one button to take threat off of a DPS.

As I've said multiple times before: If tanks were designed like healers they'd riot. Rightfully so. Which is why the current state of healer design is unacceptable to veterans.

Even before the enmity and tank stance changes, damage itself isn't required. You'd just have more GCD actions that simply increase enmity without doing damage. That's the more "Pure tank" way of tanking after all. Flash was exactly this. Just give tanks a couple damage buttons for solo play, but make them revolve around just moves like Flash. Have a single target Flash that increases enmity more than Flash, but it only affects 1 target. A debuff that generates enmity over time. etc.

Clearly that's good enough for healers. Why isn't that good enough for tanks?

[Renathras]

No AoE until Lv.46, eh? I'm curious how dungeons up through Stone Vigil would play out.

To be fair, this was close to PLD in ARR.

You had a 1-2-3 combo, a 1-4 MP regen at a damage loss, you got Flash for AOE and that was it. You had no AOE attack other than Circle of Scorn and no other direct attack besides Spirits Within. Unless you want to count Shield Lob, Shield Bash (which WAS more useful back then), and...oh, forgot about Shield Swipe, though that was a reaction command. Per the Wayback Machine here...

ARR PLD was designed like this:

http://web.archive.org/web/201306280...wiki/Gladiator
http://web.archive.org/web/201306250...m/wiki/Paladin
June 25, 20013: http://web.archive.org/web/201306150...m/wiki/Paladin

Action Level TP Cost MP Cost Cast Time Cooldown Range Radius Description
Fast Blade 1 70 0 Instant 2.5s 3y 0 Delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
Rampart 2 0 0 Instant 90s 0 0 Reduces damage taken by 10% for 20s.
Savage Blade 4 60 0 Instant 2.5s 3y 0 Delivers an attack with potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
Combo Action: Fast Blade, Combo Potency: 200.
Fight or Flight 6 0 0 Instant 180s 0 0 Increases physical damage dealt by 30% for 20s.
Flash 8 0 10 Instant 2.5s 0 5y Increases enmity in all nearby enemies.
Convalescence 10 0 0 Instant 120s 0 0 Increases HP restored by spells or actions by 20%.
Riot Blade 12 100 0 Instant 2.5s 3y 0 Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Fast Blade, Combo Potency 200, Combo Bonus: Restores MP.
Shield Lob 15 ?? 0 Instant 2.5s 15y 0 Delivers an attack with a potency of 120.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
Shield Bash 18 150 0 Instant 2.5s 3y 0 Delivers an attack with a potency of 110.
Additional Effect: Stun for 3s.
Provoke 22 0 0 Instant 40s 25y 0 Gestures threateningly, increasing enmity in target.
Rage of Halone 26 60 0 Instant 2.5s 3y 0 Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
Combo Action: Savage Blade, Combo Potency: 240, Combo Bonus: Reduce target's strength by 5% for 20s.
Shield Swipe 30 ?? 0 Instant 2.5s 3y 0 Delivers an attack with a potency of 170.
Can only be used immediately after blocking an attack.
Additional Effect: Pacification for 6s.
Awareness 34 0 0 Instant 120s 0 0 Reduces the chance of suffering critical damage by 15% for 20s.
Sentinel 38 0 0 Instant 180s 0 0 Reduces damage taken by 30% for 10s.
Tempered Will 42 0 0 Instant 180s 0 0 Immediately cures Blind and Heavy, while preventing knockback and draw-in effects for 10s.
Bulwark 46 0 0 Instant 180s 0 0 Increases block rate by 60% for 15s.
Circle of Scorn 50 0 0 Instant 25s 0 5y Delivers an attack with a potency of 30 to all nearby enemies.
Additional Effect: Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 30.

Sword Oath 30 0 Instant 2.5s 0y 0y Increases the potency of auto-attacks by 25.
Cannot be used with Shield Oath.
Effect ends upon reuse.
Cover 35 0 Instant 120s 6y 0y Takes all physical damage intended for another party member for 12s.
Can only be used when the party member is 6y or closer.
Shield Oath 40 0 Instant 2.5s 0y 0y Reduces damage received by 25% and increases enmity, while lowering damage dealt by 30%.
Cannot be used with Sword Oath.
Effect ends upon reuse.
Spirits Within 45 0 Instant 30s 3y 0y Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
Potency decreases as HP decreases.
Hallowed Ground 50 0 Instant 420s 0y 0y Renders you impervious to most attacks for 10s.

Offensive Abilities: 10 total (if you count Flash)

GLD:

Fast Blade - Savage Blade - Rage of Halone (base combo, decreased enemy damage by 5%: Levels 1, 4, and 26)
Fast Blade - Riot Blade (recover MP: Levels 1 and 12)
Flash (AOE enmity generator, deals no damage, Trait adds blind effect starting level 20: Level 8)
Shield Lob (ranged attack, additional enmity generation: Level 15)
Shield Bash (weak attack + stun: Level 18)
Shield Swipe (reactive attack, only available after blocking an attack, does decent damage and short term pacify target: Level 30)
Circle of Scorn (AOE DoT: level 50)

PLD:
Spirits Within (attack that only deals max potency when at full health: Level 45)

Defensive abilities: 5 (8 if you count Shield Oath, Convalescence, and Cover)

GLD:

Rampart (reduces damage taken 10%: Level 2)
Awareness (reduces chance of being critically hit by 15%: Level 34)
Sentinel (reduces damage taken 30%: Level 38)
Bulwark (increases block rate by 60%: Level 46)

PLD:

Hallowed Ground (impervious to most effects: Level 50)

Other abilities: 7 (4 if you don't count Shield Oath, Convalescence, and Cover)

GLD

Fight or Flight (increases physical damage dealt: Level 6)
Convalescence (Increased HP restored by healing spells or actions: Level 10)
Provoke (increases enmity: Level 22)
Tempered Will (cures Blind and Heavy, prevents knockback or draw in effects: Level 42) [NOTE: KB immunities were not common at this time, so this was its own ability for GLD/PLD]

PLD:

Sword Oath ("increases the potency of auto-attacks by 25"; yes, you read that correctly: Level 30)
Cover (takes physical damage for another party member; note physical: Level 35)
Shield Oath (increases defense by 20%, increases enmity generated, reduced damage by 30%: Level 40) [NOTE: Yes, PLD did not get their TANK STANCE until level 40. Leveling a PLD was a PITA back then, I did it)

The single target rotation generally consisted of 1-2-3, occasionally 1-4 for MP, and occasionally using a reactive Shield Swipe and Circle/Spirits oGCDs. You MIGHT pick up another attack as a Cross-Class action, but those were often utility actions picked up. People trying to macro/add-on their rotations into single buttons would have had 5 general use offensive buttons, two of which were oGCDs and two of which were situational.

.

Note that at this time, WHM had Stone (not used at endgame), Stone II, Aero, Aero II, Holy, and Fluid Aura, very similar to the current day's Glare, Dia, Holy, Misery/Lilies, and Assize when factoring in base Stone was a flat downgrade of Stone II unless you needed the Heavy. Also note, at the time, people weren't comparing it to Tank skills or saying it was broken, boring, or badly designed.

Note also that, at the time, WHM had only 22 actions (and 5 slots to Cross-Class, for a total of 27), where today they have 24 + 6 role actions for 30 total.

.

Also Note:

I'm not really making an argument for or against anything here, just looking at the old design. ARR PLD was mostly a 3 button rotation, with two more situational buttons (Shield Swipe and Riot Blade), two EXTREMELY situational buttons (Shield Bash and Shield Lob), a bunch of other mixed abilities that are kind of random by today's standards (Convalescence, Tempered Will, Awareness), along with one it still has that is kind of random in that sense (Cover). It's AOE rotation consisted of Flash spam, which didn't even do any damage, occasionally broken up by a 1-2 Riot Blade combo for MP. Skilled Tanks might use the Halone combo rotating through targets, but that wasn't the single target rotation, strictly speaking. Finally, two oGCDs, that were both kind of weird, one being an AOE DoT and the other being a reverse Essential Dignity where the damage was higher the closer to 100% the PLD's health was.

Also note PLD could Cross-Class MRD and CNJ abilities, so things like Stoneskin or Cure 1 or even Raise (though didn't have the Trait that allowed it to be used in combat; which CNJ didn't get itself until level 28, so just before Manor.)

Guard offers aoe enmity without taunting the players gameplay with DPS. A “pure tank” action one might say.

Again, this was literally ARR PLD's AOE "rotation", only broken up by 1-4 when you needed more MP - Riot Blade didn't have a -5 finisher at this time, either - and Circle of Scorn when it was off CD. I'm not sure if PLD could Cross-Class Shroud of Saints for MP, but they wouldn't want it due to the Enmity decrease, I suppose. In any case, yeah, this WAS PLD/GLD gameplay in ARR for a good chunk of one's play experience. Basically until at least level 40, since once you got Shield Oath you MIGHT be able to maintain enmity by using the Halone combo rotating through targets, as long as you didn't have too many of them. Up until Shield Oath, your enmity multiplier on your attacks was too low, so Flash spamming was the "rotation".

As I've said multiple times before[/URL]: If tanks were designed like healers they'd riot. Rightfully so. Which is why the current state of healer design is unacceptable to veterans.

It's possible, but that's more if they all were the same way. One Tank working like Healers do now would probably not bother people too much. WAR players, for example, just seem happy to be solo 4 man parties. Remove their 1-2-3 -4 and just let them spam Fell Cleave over and over, have full uptime on Bloodwhetting, then Primal Rend once per minute and some Orogeny in there somewhere, and there are quite a few WARs that would be happy as clams over that.

Not saying they all would be, but they probably wouldn't be rioting over it.

[Sebazy]

Note that at this time, WHM had Stone (not used at endgame), Stone II, Aero, Aero II, Holy, and Fluid Aura

Don't forget Thunder!

[fulminating]

a bunch of other mixed abilities that are kind of random by today's standards (Convalescence, Tempered Will, Awareness)


Finally, two oGCDs, that were both kind of weird, one being an AOE DoT and the other being a reverse Essential Dignity where the damage was higher the closer to 100% the PLD's health was.




It's possible, but that's more if they all were the same way. One Tank working like Healers do now would probably not bother people too much. WAR players, for example, just seem happy to be solo 4 man parties. Remove their 1-2-3 -4 and just let them spam Fell Cleave over and over, have full uptime on Bloodwhetting, then Primal Rend once per minute and some Orogeny in there somewhere, and there are quite a few WARs that would be happy as clams over that.

Not saying they all would be, but they probably wouldn't be rioting over it.

Random is pushing it a bit, tempered will is quite situational but the other two are just tank* cooldowns that aren’t flat mitigations.

Hey remember when upheaval did more damage when you were more damaged? Crazy that they made a better version then slapped it on warrior.

I think I’d quit over that. There’s not enough blue mage and fishing content left for me to justify remaining. It’s bad enough that warrior is in the state it’s already in without making it yet worse. I really don’t like gunbreaker, new paladin isn’t fun and dark knight is in the same boat as healers when it comes to job design. Also the dps jobs are all just weirdly unfun.

[Shurrikhan]

Hey remember when upheaval did more damage when you were more damaged?

(Original) Upheaval [Warrior, lv64] - "Deals an attack with 300 potency. Potency decreases as own HP decreases. Potency also affected by maximum HP-increasing effects."
The first part you may recognize from old Spirit's Within. The second part was why Warriors could use Thrill of Battle as an (incredibly minor) offensive tool.

Upheaval has only ever been on Warrior, at least in FFXIV. There have also been no effects since 1.x that deal increased damage as %HP decreases.
The only other two instances of the ability name Upheaval appearing in FF games, as far as I could find, was also on Warrior in FFXI and Marauder in FF:SoP.

So... not exactly a stolen ability.