Zodiark's Codex entry what do we think about it?

[Denishia]

I commented my feelings on the 'was this voluntary or ordered' in the main 6.4 thread, but while it wouldn't surprise me to have a retcon clarify that Emet was not accurate in his statement that the first two sacrifices to Zodiark were taken voluntarily (the third decidedly would not), I still don't think it was an outright draft conscription. I mean, you could say not dodging your draft is willing offering yourself up. But I'm not that cynical on Emet's Rose Tinted Glasses.

But societal peer pressure to not be selfish and offer yourself up to the star instead of clinging to life for a larger goal was already how their society functioned. What we don't have any answers to and what I think Erichtonios's statement hints at is that we aren't told if the Convocation's call for people to offer themselves up to Zodiark was a blanket request to everyone (well, except they were only going to allow one member of their ruling council to volunteer and not for any old position but that of the heart, and I would have to recheck the lines to know if the choice to go with Themis instead of Gaia was because she rescinded her nomination or was outvoted in favor of Themis) or there were people encouraged more strongly than others to sacrifice/not to.

That a Convocation's family member was supposed to be on the altar could suggest many things- that Lahabrea expected his son to be more nobly altruistic than other citizens, or the political optics that while he personally wasn't the one sacrificing himself for the plan he created, that Lahabrea was willing to do this with his son was an effective tool in convincing the average citizen of the validity of his theory and that they had no excuse to hold out. Hythlodeaus has high government bureau position in common with Erichtonios so maybe they were under more expectation than non-government employees- but we don't actually ever meet a regular Amaurotine citizen by name, just the nameless shades in fake Amaurot.

And it's Eleventh Hour Desperation because the rest of the planet is gone while the Convocation debated what if anything to do, so they're in panic mode and what else is there to do but die so might as well volunteer for the suicide mission that maybe has a chance of success.

[Lunaxia]

As I said in the 6.4 thread the wording of the sacrifice is ambiguous. It's worded as an order and we even have Erichtonios also calling it an order. Where it was written in a way before that most took it as voluntary.

It's referred to as both an order and a directive, if I'm remembering correctly. But whether that means a straight "all citizens that meet [x] requirements must offer their lives as sacrifice for the summoning"-type command or a more open call of "if the world is to be saved, then we will need [x] number of sacrifices to succeed in the summoning" is, once again, something we cannot know for certain.

Truthfully though, that's merely an acknowledgement for the sake of this discussion, as under regular circumstances I wouldn't question anything other than the second interpretation as being the obvious answer, because it correlates with everything we've heard about both the Ancients and Zodiark's summoning to date. To consider otherwise doesn't feel so much as logical analysis as it does a case of confirmation bias and ignoring what's already been laid out for us.

Oh and I at least feel as though we have a clear picture.

The wording remains as vague as it ever was. "Generation" can apply to anything from people to animals to plants to technology to simply the living inhabitants of a new era in time. Until they decide to explicitly expand upon exactly what they mean by "new lives", "a portion of the world's living energy" (previous terms) or "new generation", again, we can't truly know. And I feel as if the waters have become further muddied by how the concepts of Elpis were treated in EW and the examination of the ethics involved, considering they were also touted as "new life" deserving of the right to live.

What bothers me the most about this argument is how it's supposed to be in Hydaelyn's favor, but she ends up annihilating any and all human life on Etheriys regardless, so I don't understand how this is meant to aid in justifying her actions in any way.

[Cleretic]

I'd say that for this, I'd be happiest hearing from someone who knows how it was put in Japanese--and not just 'someone who can read Japanese/use Google Translate', because this is something that could VERY easily be subject to the subtleties of language.

Even in English, what better word would there be than 'order' for this even if it is a social expectation? They still need the sacrifices, even if they aren't drafting people or anything like that.

[Iscah]

Hydelean

Thanks for providing the codex quote, but it needs a spelling check.

I find Light's association with peace and tranquility at odds, considering all we see of Light and refulgence in Shadowbringers.

Light is primarily stasis – representing tranquility in contrast to the activity of Darkness, neither of those being a bad thing in moderation.

The First is an example of what happens when Light goes too far, past a pleasant degree of tranquility and into a destructive form.

So, what precisely was your intentions in starting this thread? Because the tone comprised withing is coming across as oddly combative, is there anyone even still invested in starting this particular duel anew? Discuss Lore please, do not attempt to incite certain posters to come duke it out here. The exact nature of the sacrifices seem to do little but start embattled rows these days, and most here I say claim to be rather weary of that fight.

This is further actual information (if still frustratingly vague) on the nature of the sacrifices. Just because people on both sides of the argument make it a misery to try to have the discussion doesn't stop it from being a lore question that those of us in the middle would like an answer to.

If you're going to accuse people of being "oddly combative" then your own post is coming across that way too.

How low does one have to be relegated to to think outright offing oneself is the best they can contribute to the greater good?

The maths gets rather altered by the fact that there is a literal world-destroying calamity looming and the only way to solve it is by people volunteering to sacrifice themselves.

In normal life he is quite happy to live and support his friends. In this situation he decided that the best way to support them is to be one of the sacrifices so that they can go on living.

[SannaR]

This is the same guy who calls himself an unsundered.

I'm not sure what becoming a reflection means. Besides making a physical copy of himself as he still hopped out of the pilot seat and was physically near Emet when the sundering happened so that copy was able to hop through the don't get sundered hole.

[SannaR]

Ahhhh thanks Iscah for noting my misspelling of Hydaelyn.

[Brinne]

What bothers me the most about this argument is how it's supposed to be in Hydaelyn's favor, but she ends up annihilating any and all human life on Etheriys regardless, so I don't understand how this is meant to aid in justifying her actions in any way.

Yeah, it's a bit of a weird thing to get caught up in in this point since it's been established that actually protecting the lives of the sacrifices was not Venat's true concern - she was perfectly willing to (and did) treat them as expendable in service to her larger goals, which was forcing the Ancients to change. So the question of trying to pin down the exact nature of the sacrifices is one that not only doesn't actually alter anything about the true nature of the conflict, and also becomes a referendum of mostly "well, was the Convocation's plan just as callous as Hydaelyn's, or better?"

Even the "worst case scenario" in regards to the sacrifices basically comes down to "absolutely everyone here basically sucks, except maybe some unnamed, unknown members of Venat's group who were true believers and only mentioned in passing summary, and if so essentially got taken advantage of as a result." And I mean, if those members ever actually become characters on a meaningful level, I'll root for them! Go go random Venat faction member #6! Sorry you got soul-deathed! You deserved better!

[SannaR]

The wording remains as vague as it ever was. "Generation" can apply to anything from people to animals to plants to technology to simply the living inhabitants of a new era in time. Until they decide to explicitly expand upon exactly what they mean by "new lives", "a portion of the world's living energy" (previous terms) or "new generation", again, we can't truly know. And I feel as if the waters have become further muddied by how the concepts of Elpis were treated in EW and the examination of the ethics involved, considering they were also touted as "new life" deserving of the right to live.

What bothers me the most about this argument is how it's supposed to be in Hydaelyn's favor, but she ends up annihilating any and all human life on Etheriys regardless, so I don't understand how this is meant to aid in justifying her actions in any way.

I understand that generation can and is applied to many things. Yet, when one normally talks about leaving something to be inherited by the next generation the expected recipient is thought of as one's offspring and you know not their toy Furby. Not that there are some people who would actually go and do such a thing as leave all their worldly possessions to their pet African Grey.

[Denishia]

I'm not sure what becoming a reflection means. Besides making a physical copy of himself as he still hopped out of the pilot seat and was physically near Emet when the sundering happened so that copy was able to hop through the don't get sundered hole.

That was an interesting word choice, and I guess to signal that Elidibus wasn't just a tempered soul released from Zodiark but a primal created by a primal (which we know from Eureka is a thing that happens) imitating the person Themis, but with Themis's soul inside the primal Elidibus, much like Ysayle inside Shiva. It's just that not only did the Shiva -or Queen Gunnhildr as a better parallel- in this case look indistinguishable from Ysayle/Misija, at no point did the primal form dissipate to release the soul inside until that 6.3 post-fight cutscene.

At least that's how everything makes sense to me right now.

[TowaIsBestGirl]

Light is primarily stasis – representing tranquility in contrast to the activity of Darkness, neither of those being a bad thing in moderation.

I was basically saying I do not consider an absence of a driving force inciting change to be tranquility be default. It's one interpretation to be sure, but it certainly isn't the only one. Absence of change can just as easily be a creepy, disquieting void of nothing as it can be a tranquil sea with no waves to disrupt equilibrium. When "Light" is brought to the fore in FFXIV, the most prominent example from what I can recall is a direct threat to both the Scions and the world of the First.

The instances before that, especially insofar as Hydaelyn are concerned, the element in question being Light was less of a prominent detail than it was during the events of Shadowbringers. Which is the expansion where the finally deigned to give us the true details of what comprised Umbral and Astral aether. That's why I find it odd to consider it tranquil by default, since when the specifics were explained we were dealing with a threat comprised of being whose aether had been stilled to violent effect.

This is further actual information (if still frustratingly vague) on the nature of the sacrifices. Just because people on both sides of the argument make it a misery to try to have the discussion doesn't stop it from being a lore question that those of us in the middle would like an answer to.

If you're going to accuse people of being "oddly combative" then your own post is coming across that way too.

Fair enough. Though, to be frank I never discounted myself from that. Either way, future escalation sadly cannot be forestalled by taking no action at all so I refused to do that. I'm wary as to future details we may or may not get, to be quite honest however. I can't help but get a sinking feeling it'll satisfy either only one party and enrage the other or satisfy nobody. Too early to tell, though. Even then, I don't imagine we'll be getting any future detail after Pandaemonium neither. This may well be the end of the Ancient clarifications. Which is weird, since imo Pandaemonium gave us more questions than answers.

Anyway, to Sanna I wasn't being fair to you 'twould seem and for that you have my apologies.