Zodiark's Codex entry what do we think about it?

[SannaR]

Oh and I at least feel as though we have a clear picture of what the new life was. It uses the phrase next generation which I don't think many would call plants and animals imbued with souls as the next generation.

[Lunaxia]

As I said in the 6.4 thread the wording of the sacrifice is ambiguous. It's worded as an order and we even have Erichtonios also calling it an order. Where it was written in a way before that most took it as voluntary.

It's referred to as both an order and a directive, if I'm remembering correctly. But whether that means a straight "all citizens that meet [x] requirements must offer their lives as sacrifice for the summoning"-type command or a more open call of "if the world is to be saved, then we will need [x] number of sacrifices to succeed in the summoning" is, once again, something we cannot know for certain.

Truthfully though, that's merely an acknowledgement for the sake of this discussion, as under regular circumstances I wouldn't question anything other than the second interpretation as being the obvious answer, because it correlates with everything we've heard about both the Ancients and Zodiark's summoning to date. To consider otherwise doesn't feel so much as logical analysis as it does a case of confirmation bias and ignoring what's already been laid out for us.

Oh and I at least feel as though we have a clear picture.

The wording remains as vague as it ever was. "Generation" can apply to anything from people to animals to plants to technology to simply the living inhabitants of a new era in time. Until they decide to explicitly expand upon exactly what they mean by "new lives", "a portion of the world's living energy" (previous terms) or "new generation", again, we can't truly know. And I feel as if the waters have become further muddied by how the concepts of Elpis were treated in EW and the examination of the ethics involved, considering they were also touted as "new life" deserving of the right to live.

What bothers me the most about this argument is how it's supposed to be in Hydaelyn's favor, but she ends up annihilating any and all human life on Etheriys regardless, so I don't understand how this is meant to aid in justifying her actions in any way.

[Brinne]

What bothers me the most about this argument is how it's supposed to be in Hydaelyn's favor, but she ends up annihilating any and all human life on Etheriys regardless, so I don't understand how this is meant to aid in justifying her actions in any way.

Yeah, it's a bit of a weird thing to get caught up in in this point since it's been established that actually protecting the lives of the sacrifices was not Venat's true concern - she was perfectly willing to (and did) treat them as expendable in service to her larger goals, which was forcing the Ancients to change. So the question of trying to pin down the exact nature of the sacrifices is one that not only doesn't actually alter anything about the true nature of the conflict, and also becomes a referendum of mostly "well, was the Convocation's plan just as callous as Hydaelyn's, or better?"

Even the "worst case scenario" in regards to the sacrifices basically comes down to "absolutely everyone here basically sucks, except maybe some unnamed, unknown members of Venat's group who were true believers and only mentioned in passing summary, and if so essentially got taken advantage of as a result." And I mean, if those members ever actually become characters on a meaningful level, I'll root for them! Go go random Venat faction member #6! Sorry you got soul-deathed! You deserved better!

[Lunaxia]

Yeah, it's a bit of a weird thing to get caught up in in this point...

It's a little funny to me that the aim of this thread, even if meant with all the good faith in the world, was effectively to call attention to how the Convocation might have conceivably ordered the Ancients to kill themselves, before proceeding to subtly highlight in contrast the morality of Venat's actions by pointing out how she wanted to preserve new life of potential importance... that would have, you know, resurrected those Ancients. It still boils down to the same matter of her choosing one form of life over another, and the fundamental question of how that makes her any better overall.

[TowaIsBestGirl]

If it helps: Law in the SHin Megami Tensei games is essentially a Light-dominated scenario.

...wait, that doesn't help at all, there is very little chance that she knows enough about Shin Megami Tensei to get that.

Okay, if you know Doctor Who: the Daleks would be Light-aligned.

EDIT: In retrospect I think that might help even less

For just a moment I was going to say that typically the Law routes in SMT are pretty scummy and evil/bad routes, but really all the routes are pretty crummy. Venat's better than all of them, if nothing else. Though, it's hard to not be better than a SMT-style Demiurge or YHWH. But yeah, that first example does a terrible job of illustrated the virtues of the Light regrettably. I suppose I just felt to write about Venat's better qualities would be better served by calling attention to her own character quirks and the goals she wished to accomplish than the element her magic is based on, if the intent is to establish her as a more suitable alternative to the primal Zodiark. After Shadowbringers lore drops, the point of extrapolating "He was the Darkness, She was the Light" falls just a tad more flat in my opinion. Such that I didn't feel it was necessary to really include it, further than to establish basic metaphysics sans any moral embellishments.

It's a little funny to me that the aim of this thread, even if meant with all the good faith in the world, was effectively to call attention to how the Convocation might have conceivably ordered the Ancients to kill themselves, before proceeding to subtly highlight in contrast the morality of Venat's actions by pointing out how she wanted to preserve new life of potential importance... that would have, you know, resurrected those Ancients. It still boils down to the same matter of her choosing one form of life over another, and the fundamental question of how that makes her any better overall.

This was basically the insinuation I was calling attention to, but you used your words in much more proficient ways than I've ever been capable of. I suppose it doesn't really matter, does it.

[SannaR]

The wording remains as vague as it ever was. "Generation" can apply to anything from people to animals to plants to technology to simply the living inhabitants of a new era in time. Until they decide to explicitly expand upon exactly what they mean by "new lives", "a portion of the world's living energy" (previous terms) or "new generation", again, we can't truly know. And I feel as if the waters have become further muddied by how the concepts of Elpis were treated in EW and the examination of the ethics involved, considering they were also touted as "new life" deserving of the right to live.

What bothers me the most about this argument is how it's supposed to be in Hydaelyn's favor, but she ends up annihilating any and all human life on Etheriys regardless, so I don't understand how this is meant to aid in justifying her actions in any way.

I understand that generation can and is applied to many things. Yet, when one normally talks about leaving something to be inherited by the next generation the expected recipient is thought of as one's offspring and you know not their toy Furby. Not that there are some people who would actually go and do such a thing as leave all their worldly possessions to their pet African Grey.

[RyuDragnier]

What bothers me the most about this argument is how it's supposed to be in Hydaelyn's favor, but she ends up annihilating any and all human life on Etheriys regardless, so I don't understand how this is meant to aid in justifying her actions in any way.

I wouldn't call it annihilating, as life still exists. If anything, the Convocation's plan is essentially "replace X Ancient souls with X new souls." Basically just replacing life with the same amount, with them only wanting their own lives to matter here. Venat's is essentially "Cleave X souls and world into 14, multiplying them into Y souls," with 14X = Y being the mathematical formula. Does it change the fact it was horrific? Oh hell no, but in the end it made more life than it took.

[Lurina]

I wouldn't call it annihilating, as life still exists. If anything, the Convocation's plan is essentially "replace X Ancient souls with X new souls." Basically just replacing life with the same amount, with them only wanting their own lives to matter here. Venat's is essentially "Cleave X souls and world into 14, multiplying them into Y souls," with 14X = Y being the mathematical formula. Does it change the fact it was horrific? Oh hell no, but in the end it made more life than it took.

I mean. Even if you put aside that everyone currently alive effectively died, I wouldn't bet on it. Going from a post-scarcity society to a hunter-gatherer one probably entails a die-off that makes the Bronze Age Collapse look like an outbreak of chicken pox.

[RyuDragnier]

I mean. Even if you put aside that everyone currently alive effectively died, I wouldn't bet on it. Going from a post-scarcity society to a hunter-gatherer one probably entails a die-off that makes the Bronze Age Collapse look like an outbreak of chicken pox.

You're thinking of the First Astral Era, which was after the first Calamity, the Calamity of Wind. We know nothing of the time between the Sundering and the Calamity of Wind, absolutely nothing, so sadly we can't say anything for certain. It's believed that the First Astral Era was the time when people started making tools for their survival (meaning stone age).

[Lurina]

We know nothing of the time between the Sundering and the Calamity of Wind, absolutely nothing,

Yeah we do. There was that NieR crossover short story.