On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Lunaxia]

Oh, you misunderstand. I think most of the major Ancients actually do receive adequate criticism...

Okay, I'm a little more on your page now. Ironically, it looks like we're at similar destinations, but take different roads to get there.

The main issue is, you want the option to be able to call out Elidibus for his role in the story prior to EW, and not have the WoL automatically predisposed to being amicable towards him. I can appreciate and understand that (despite being at odds with it, considering I want him to be permitted to be hostile here.) You also dislike that he's been stripped of his "Ascian phase", which I'm actually in full agreement with, but my own issues with it are a little different; I don't see it as his being "cleansed", per se, nor do I ultimately find him undeserving of sympathy or a better ending because of his past, so in that respect I don't agree. To me, Themis' involvement in the story as Elidibus is a different kettle of fish to the likes of Lahabrea and Emet-Selch, and consequently he shouldn't really be held under the same microscope that they are. From a story perspective, I think he got enough grief for his actions as we dealt with him in ShB, and that's kind of all been put to rest as far as I'm concerned. Lahabrea, on the other hand, was more "unfinished business" if you like, so addressing his role in our future felt appropriate.

As for the other Ancients, there are some things I'm on board with, others not so much; Venat was still let off really lightly in the narrative compared to the likes of the Ascians, and yes I'm going to swerve dangerously close to that argument by equating the two sides; Emet-Selch giving story exposition and really the only acknowledgement of her actions outside of the Mother Hydaelyn bubble (which he later goes on to praise) with the air of a grudge just doesn't compensate for the lack of comment that the scale of her deeds actually warranted. Azem doesn't receive much in the way of harsh criticism, but they are remarked to have been censured previously for their approach and numerous characters remark on the absolute chaos they wreak, tinged with both affection and exasperation, so to me it's reasonably balanced. Highlighting the keywardens in Pandae also feels a little mean, lol, since the poor guys like as not were just looking up to their superiors.

Emet-Selch in Elpis is enough of a misery to be walking evidence of his own flaws (as much as I'm fond of them), but... I don't disagree at all that some of his post-sundering actions don't get enough light thrown on them. I actually got into a debate a while back at how kindly the story suddenly takes to treating him, and the gymnastics they employ to avoid mentioning his hand in Garlemald in particular, so I'm with you there at least!

[Brinne]

I actually got into a debate a while back at how kindly the story suddenly takes to treating him, and the gymnastics they employ to avoid mentioning his hand in Garlemald in particular, so I'm with you there at least!

Hey, that was a good time! Uh. Assuming you're referring to your discussions/debates with me. If not, just, ignore this post and I'll quietly go back to cheerfully making use of that report button!

I don't have much to add to this point except agreeing with you that I'm much more interested in a basic framework where we're the ones who wronged Themis and need forgiveness, in a way, and I got a bit more of that sense from his final scene than I think you did, which is why it probably went down for me a bit better. And yeah, that 5.3 was harsh enough on Elidibus (G'raha is harsh) that I can't bring myself to be concerned with it anymore. 5.3 also basically ended with the recognition/revelation on the part of the WoL of his "true nature" (a young person who truly, sincerely, just loved his friends and wanted to help save the world) to the point we were given the option afterwards to say "I don't know if I did the right thing" in regards to putting him down, so our relative friendliness to him seemed perfectly consistent to me.

There comes a point where I start feeling pretty weird about a need to berate all members we know of a particular race and make sure we hold them properly morally accountable for all their terrible, awful, no good, very bad crimes, especially when they're all already dead, and, as we're reminded in Anabesios, they're the ones who are the "losers" in the "I want to save the world and those I love"-off with us and therefore don't get to "decide history" after they've already lost everything.

[Lunaxia]

Hey, that was a good time! ...

It was! And incredibly satisfying to breach such a tasty subject usually off-limits in most places (criticising Emet-Selch sometimes feel akin to treading holy ground) to that degree of detail, but I always like to share in such opinions because it can be rare to find a like mind.

I've said I don't begrudge anyone who resents the Ascians for what they've done, or even just really hates them for who and what they are, but part of me feels you'd have to be a little cold-hearted to not think poor Eli was cutting a sad figure by the time we were well on our way to facing him, and the subsequent events surrounding our confrontation really made me feel like we were just kicking the puppy while he was down. He wasn't broken and had lost himself from a personal, Emet-Selch sort of standpoint, but he had completely collapsed in both mind and soul, and was unaware of having lost the very essence of who he was entirely. Peeling that back to see this grieving kid underneath trying to recover the scattered fragments and how it put a whole new slant on his mission to understand us and emulate us as a hero... like, he'd already given his life, his body and his mind at that point, and lost everything and everyone he held dear, can we give him a small break? It's okay to admit there are parts of the sundering that were a genuine tragedy, and it doesn't mean you condone the Ascians overall or the rejoinings.

His VA ended up a bit of a hilarious fit for the original Themis, but I'll be damned if that "My duty! No! Not yet!" line in SoS still doesn't pull at the heartstrings.

food for thought.

I find your assessment of Hyth here really interesting, not least because I wasn't a fan of his Elpis appearance but also for not choosing to automatically view him as a charitable and benevolent character, which we're sort of prone to do when it comes to the Ancients. And experiences since have shown that is far from always being the case!

I'm not sure I agree with "depressed", though, and I'm always a bit "eek"-y at applying IRL diagnoses to fictional characters. It doesn't play out well usually, and winds up being a bit of a disservice to the character most of the time.

[Denishia]

It was! And incredibly satisfying to breach such a tasty subject usually off-limits in most places (criticising Emet-Selch sometimes feel akin to treading holy ground) to that degree of detail, but I always like to share in such opinions because it can be rare to find a like mind.

I've said I don't begrudge anyone who resents the Ascians for what they've done, or even just really hates them for who and what they are, but part of me feels you'd have to be a little cold-hearted to not think poor Eli was cutting a sad figure by the time we were well on our way to facing him, and the subsequent events surrounding our confrontation really made me feel like we were just kicking the puppy while he was down. He wasn't broken and had lost himself from a personal, Emet-Selch sort of standpoint, but he had completely collapsed in both mind and soul, and was unaware of having lost the very essence of who he was entirely. Peeling that back to see this grieving kid underneath trying to recover the scattered fragments and how it put a whole new slant on his mission to understand us and emulate us as a hero... like, he'd already given his life, his body and his mind at that point, and lost everything and everyone he held dear, can we give him a small break? It's okay to admit there are parts of the sundering that were a genuine tragedy, and it doesn't mean you condone the Ascians overall or the rejoinings.

I'm exactly that person - I do disdain the Ascians and think Elidibus by 6.3 was a figure of pity precisely because there was tragedy in this young man who hollowed out everything that made him who he was and everything good in the name of his friends and ideals where what's left is this defiler of the genuine heroics the real Themis admired and doing so in a way that feels treacherous and sadistic. Elidibus the Primal is not emotionless, but there is something more like corrupted AI instead of actual person so as a villain I didn't despise him the way I did Emet. I didn't resent the game giving the WoL sadness and regret like I do the game's insistence that I should feel sorrow over Emet and ignore his role in Allag and Garlemald. Elidibus the zombie trying to continue Rejoining Plan that would not work, especially by 6.3, trying to murder entire worlds in the false belief that he can bring back a world that he doesn't even remember or have ties to except for a memory that a duty exists at all. So it becomes both necessity and relief to stop him and let his soul dissipate to join Venat as cosmic stardust free of the Wheel of Rebirth (or hope he's reborn as an Ondo. Which I'm really attached to this headcanon now, especially as Erichtonios should have a Shard on the First that had the Echo awoken by Elidi-Ardbert's stunt, and as Erichtonios is similar to Rue-Leeq he can be an Eulmorean adventurer. They can team-up and have adventures together.)