Samurai LB is still BS

[UkcsAlias]

Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

And its a good reason for me to avoid pvp entirely. Because this is a false reason, as mobas already have teached me.

These OHKOs are anoying because you cannot control your teammates. Having a teammate constantly fall for this without being able to realy act against it is a major cause for frustration. Nearly all mobas are trying to avoid OHKOs as much as possible, as its unhealthy for balance as it always means someone has to babysit the bad player, and that often takes a lot of resources away that could be used for your proper teammates. Yet you are forced to, because feeding the enemy is generaly worse.

Not having OHKO is healthier since it gives the bad player a better sense of progression in surviving. When they realize an early retreat means they survive more often, it helps at having them learn. But a OHKO is a binary result: it happens, or it doesnt. There is no middle step to learn any progression. And binary systems like that are generaly just broken.

And this isnt a l2p issue either. As especialy at higher skill levels, these binary OHKO mechanics are deemed unwanted because instead of relying on skill, it becomes a guessing game in timing. To realy measure skill, you want reliable outcomes and not have to deal with something that feels like complete rng. And yes, you can guess moments in which they will use such abilities, but is that realy worth it to waste a cooldown on (which if misguessed gives the enemy a free shot anyway)?

[Kansene]

And its a good reason for me to avoid pvp entirely. Because this is a false reason, as mobas already have teached me.

These OHKOs are anoying because you cannot control your teammates. Having a teammate constantly fall for this without being able to realy act against it is a major cause for frustration. Nearly all mobas are trying to avoid OHKOs as much as possible, as its unhealthy for balance as it always means someone has to babysit the bad player, and that often takes a lot of resources away that could be used for your proper teammates. Yet you are forced to, because feeding the enemy is generaly worse.

Not having OHKO is healthier since it gives the bad player a better sense of progression in surviving. When they realize an early retreat means they survive more often, it helps at having them learn. But a OHKO is a binary result: it happens, or it doesnt. There is no middle step to learn any progression. And binary systems like that are generaly just broken.

And this isnt a l2p issue either. As especialy at higher skill levels, these binary OHKO mechanics are deemed unwanted because instead of relying on skill, it becomes a guessing game in timing. To realy measure skill, you want reliable outcomes and not have to deal with something that feels like complete rng. And yes, you can guess moments in which they will use such abilities, but is that realy worth it to waste a cooldown on (which if misguessed gives the enemy a free shot anyway)?

Pretty much nailed it there.
There are people on this forum who are completely and utterly incapable of understanding that thinking a mechanic is badly designed doesn't necessarily mean "SKILL ISSUE LOL I CANT DEAL WITH IT!!1one"
I've probably said it a dozen times already, and I'll keep reiterating:

The SAM LB is not overpowered.
The SAM LB has counterplay.
The SAM LB can be avoided by paying close attention.

However:

The punishment for one millisecond of inattention or one minuscule misclick should not be a guaranteed instant death.

Simple as.

[Elissar]

snip

The way you use your hair is very creative and nice, congratulations!
About the topic itself: i see no problem with SAM HK.

[doomballoon]

Hi. I played SAM a few times and even got to Plat before!

Each job has 6 unique buttons. PvP is meant to be simple and it's with these tools that every job has reasonable counters to SAM LB. It's only hard to counter in a vacuum if you're trying to cover a mistaken proc against chiten. Mistakes, fairly, should get punished. But if you throw a cast against a SAM from range as a SMN and immediately throw on an Aegis, that's one way to bait out a 2 minute LB for effect. You all should know this, even if not all counters are as obvious as PLD/DRK/SGE LBs. Some of you even touch on the fact that shield actions left on CD are a waste (unless you're planning to counter because you see their LB gauge is up!)

No one should get to expect a free escape from a Zanny when they have half health just because they still have a defensive available. Seto seems to be the only one to understand that MCH turret is AMAZING against SAMs for example. It doesn't give Kazushi to the MCH when it ticks AND it increases the target's damage taken, which is a great COUNTER against chiten's mitigation. Unless you're only playing Casual matches with people who are still learning how to play, a SAM with the MCH turret debuff should get bursted to death asap by the team even through chiten.(25% mit isn't that much even before turret debuff)

Not one job is helpless against its LB and it sure isn't free for taking 2 minutes to charge. It's a fun job with a lot of nuance in how well it plays at each level. I'll tell you this much as well. If someone hit a SAM with chiten up and die afterward to Zan, they made 2 mistakes. One is that they hit the wrong target with their mitigation up, and the second is that they weren't ready for it. The chump messed up and earned that death twice over.

Feels bad because played bad. Tell them to get over it and do better.

[Valence]

Hi. I played SAM a few times and even got to Plat before!

Each job has 6 unique buttons. PvP is meant to be simple and it's with these tools that every job has reasonable counters to SAM LB. It's only hard to counter in a vacuum if you're trying to cover a mistaken proc against chiten. Mistakes, fairly, should get punished. But if you throw a cast against a SAM from range as a SMN and immediately throw on an Aegis, that's one way to bait out a 2 minute LB for effect. You all should know this, even if not all counters are as obvious as PLD/DRK/SGE LBs. Some of you even touch on the fact that shield actions left on CD are a waste (unless you're planning to counter because you see their LB gauge is up!)

No one should get to expect a free escape from a Zanny when they have half health just because they still have a defensive available. Seto seems to be the only one to understand that MCH turret is AMAZING against SAMs for example. It doesn't give Kazushi to the MCH when it ticks AND it increases the target's damage taken, which is a great COUNTER against chiten's mitigation. Unless you're only playing Casual matches with people who are still learning how to play, a SAM with the MCH turret debuff should get bursted to death asap by the team even through chiten.(25% mit isn't that much even before turret debuff)

Not one job is helpless against its LB and it sure isn't free for taking 2 minutes to charge. It's a fun job with a lot of nuance in how well it plays at each level. I'll tell you this much as well. If someone hit a SAM with chiten up and die afterward to Zan, they made 2 mistakes. One is that they hit the wrong target with their mitigation up, and the second is that they weren't ready for it. The chump messed up and earned that death twice over.

Feels bad because played bad. Tell them to get over it and do better.

Hard disagree because you're literally throwing a strawman. Nobody said jobs are helpless vs Zantetsuken (or at least, I haven't).

The real problem with people in those forums is that they love their talk in a vacuum, when in reality it always boils down to a matter of balance vs actual effort to deploy. In essence, this means that the more cumbersome something is to pull off, the lesser it's going to happen successfully, especially if pit against something that isn't. Now then, I play SAM casually and I don't think Zantetsuken is that easy to pull especially against skilled players, much like baiting good SAMs is easier said than done, they're not stupid either. But the amount of effort and specific circumstances to pull in order to survive a Zantetsuken with a big fat kuzuchi on you is not exactly a trifle, and requires you to have full HP, a shield that's not been chipped already, and the ability to survive after losing 95% of your life. On top of it, it also requires to find a proper location to bait it, which is easier said than done, and will sometimes just clip your whole team in the process.

I however main MCH at crystal level and I can safely tell you that you're dreaming if you think a MCH turret will save anybody eating a Zantestsuken for the simple reason that the shield gets clipped most of the time by the ongoing AoE damage everybody gets, and if it doesn't kill someone outright, they sure will die from enemies picking them up anyway. At best it's good for little skirmishes or duels, but odds are that if you're pulling this against a melee DPS as a MCH, you're seriously asking to be killed anyway.

[doomballoon]

Hard disagree because you're literally throwing a strawman. Nobody said jobs are helpless vs Zantetsuken (or at least, I haven't).

The real problem with people in those forums is that they love their talk in a vacuum, when in reality it always boils down to a matter of balance vs actual effort to deploy. In essence, this means that the more cumbersome something is to pull off, the lesser it's going to happen successfully, especially if pit against something that isn't. Now then, I play SAM casually and I don't think Zantetsuken is that easy to pull especially against skilled players, much like baiting good SAMs is easier said than done, they're not stupid either. But the amount of effort and specific circumstances to pull in order to survive a Zantetsuken with a big fat kuzuchi on you is not exactly a trifle, and requires you to have full HP, a shield that's not been chipped already, and the ability to survive after losing 95% of your life. On top of it, it also requires to find a proper location to bait it, which is easier said than done, and will sometimes just clip your whole team in the process.

I however main MCH at crystal level and I can safely tell you that you're dreaming if you think a MCH turret will save anybody eating a Zantestsuken for the simple reason that the shield gets clipped most of the time by the ongoing AoE damage everybody gets, and if it doesn't kill someone outright, they sure will die from enemies picking them up anyway. At best it's good for little skirmishes or duels, but odds are that if you're pulling this against a melee DPS as a MCH, you're seriously asking to be killed anyway.

You just did the same thing, sweetheart. I wasn't even speaking to you directly. You also only seem to disagree with the viability of certain jobs' ability to counter Zan. It SHOULD be hard for MCH to cover themselves for SAM lb because they do so much damage at range. Turret is an excellent shielding tool against SAM lb because it 'pulses' -this means it reapplies shields to the party even if they are cleaved. It's not a full-stop safety against SAM lb but it really shouldn't be without being an LB itself and has saved a great number of players from getting dropped when they should've been. Turret is one of the single best defensive and offensive cooldown tools in CC, hands down.

PS: For those MCH's at Crystal level struggling to reach t100, stop using Turret as a zoning tool during openers. It's a meme and just identifies you as an easy target <3

[Valence]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying SAM LB should be nerfed or buffed, it's underwhelming at higher level, but it will still ask people to bite the bullet in the opposing team to get rid of it. I'd however be in favor of changing it into a non one shot KO ability with a wider line AOE, still based on kuzushi boosting its damage and allowing a guard bypass. That would probably shut down most of the current complaints, especially from low level players.

You just did the same thing, sweetheart. I wasn't even speaking to you directly. You also only seem to disagree with the viability of certain jobs' ability to counter Zan. It SHOULD be hard for MCH to cover themselves for SAM lb because they do so much damage at range. Turret is an excellent shielding tool against SAM lb because it 'pulses' -this means it reapplies shields to the party even if they are cleaved. It's not a full-stop safety against SAM lb but it really shouldn't be without being an LB itself and has saved a great number of players from getting dropped when they should've been. Turret is one of the single best defensive and offensive cooldown tools in CC, hands down.

PS: For those MCH's at Crystal level struggling to reach t100, stop using Turret as a zoning tool during openers. It's a meme and just identifies you as an easy target <3

1) Please enlighten me how I'm talking in a vacuum? "no u" is not an argument
2) I don't care if you were not talking to me. I'm reacting to what you wrote on a public forum, you're free to ignore it.
3) I disagree with most jobs ability to counter Zantetsuken, and not just some, as explained already because defensives are not made to be sat on until the enemy SAM deigns use their LB. If one sits on defensives for minutes long, the SAM already wins by that alone if 5 players in the opposing team does so. It eliminates already a lot of jobs from the pool, except perhaps a few like SMN.
4) You're not reading what I'm writing. If you deploy a turret in a team engagement to prevent a SAM from LBing it supposes a lot of factors to be met: first it needs to be preemptive and not reactive because of the turret deployment time, which means the SAM can just choose to sit on their LB and delay their Chiten. Second, even if it pulses, getting one's HP being reduced to 6k (at best) will literally mean a death most of the time if the opposing team (at least at high level) is not sleeping on their keyboards. I do not consider surviving a Zantetsuken with 3k HP left "surviving it" considering what's gonna happen in the couple of seconds that follow. I've personally never seen a turret save anybody from Sam LB in a big engagement, so I'll chalk this down to different experiences I guess. Unless you're speaking of smaller skirmishes where you're trying to save an ally from it, perhaps.
5) There is actual MCHs still deploying the turret in the void like gold players do during openers at crystal level on NA? lol