Samurai LB is still BS

[Belle_Velvet]

It needs to nerf. It is total BS they can instakill you from full health with a single move.

[Archeron]

It needs to nerf. It is total BS they can instakill you from full health with a single move.

Oh boy, its another one of these threads!

No. You deserve to die everytime you get LB'd by a Samurai. Their toolkit is limited enough as it is. If you can't watch your AOE around a Samurai, Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

[UkcsAlias]

Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

And its a good reason for me to avoid pvp entirely. Because this is a false reason, as mobas already have teached me.

These OHKOs are anoying because you cannot control your teammates. Having a teammate constantly fall for this without being able to realy act against it is a major cause for frustration. Nearly all mobas are trying to avoid OHKOs as much as possible, as its unhealthy for balance as it always means someone has to babysit the bad player, and that often takes a lot of resources away that could be used for your proper teammates. Yet you are forced to, because feeding the enemy is generaly worse.

Not having OHKO is healthier since it gives the bad player a better sense of progression in surviving. When they realize an early retreat means they survive more often, it helps at having them learn. But a OHKO is a binary result: it happens, or it doesnt. There is no middle step to learn any progression. And binary systems like that are generaly just broken.

And this isnt a l2p issue either. As especialy at higher skill levels, these binary OHKO mechanics are deemed unwanted because instead of relying on skill, it becomes a guessing game in timing. To realy measure skill, you want reliable outcomes and not have to deal with something that feels like complete rng. And yes, you can guess moments in which they will use such abilities, but is that realy worth it to waste a cooldown on (which if misguessed gives the enemy a free shot anyway)?

[Kansene]

And its a good reason for me to avoid pvp entirely. Because this is a false reason, as mobas already have teached me.

These OHKOs are anoying because you cannot control your teammates. Having a teammate constantly fall for this without being able to realy act against it is a major cause for frustration. Nearly all mobas are trying to avoid OHKOs as much as possible, as its unhealthy for balance as it always means someone has to babysit the bad player, and that often takes a lot of resources away that could be used for your proper teammates. Yet you are forced to, because feeding the enemy is generaly worse.

Not having OHKO is healthier since it gives the bad player a better sense of progression in surviving. When they realize an early retreat means they survive more often, it helps at having them learn. But a OHKO is a binary result: it happens, or it doesnt. There is no middle step to learn any progression. And binary systems like that are generaly just broken.

And this isnt a l2p issue either. As especialy at higher skill levels, these binary OHKO mechanics are deemed unwanted because instead of relying on skill, it becomes a guessing game in timing. To realy measure skill, you want reliable outcomes and not have to deal with something that feels like complete rng. And yes, you can guess moments in which they will use such abilities, but is that realy worth it to waste a cooldown on (which if misguessed gives the enemy a free shot anyway)?

Pretty much nailed it there.
There are people on this forum who are completely and utterly incapable of understanding that thinking a mechanic is badly designed doesn't necessarily mean "SKILL ISSUE LOL I CANT DEAL WITH IT!!1one"
I've probably said it a dozen times already, and I'll keep reiterating:

The SAM LB is not overpowered.
The SAM LB has counterplay.
The SAM LB can be avoided by paying close attention.

However:

The punishment for one millisecond of inattention or one minuscule misclick should not be a guaranteed instant death.

Simple as.

[Elissar]

snip

The way you use your hair is very creative and nice, congratulations!
About the topic itself: i see no problem with SAM HK.

[doomballoon]

Hi. I played SAM a few times and even got to Plat before!

Each job has 6 unique buttons. PvP is meant to be simple and it's with these tools that every job has reasonable counters to SAM LB. It's only hard to counter in a vacuum if you're trying to cover a mistaken proc against chiten. Mistakes, fairly, should get punished. But if you throw a cast against a SAM from range as a SMN and immediately throw on an Aegis, that's one way to bait out a 2 minute LB for effect. You all should know this, even if not all counters are as obvious as PLD/DRK/SGE LBs. Some of you even touch on the fact that shield actions left on CD are a waste (unless you're planning to counter because you see their LB gauge is up!)

No one should get to expect a free escape from a Zanny when they have half health just because they still have a defensive available. Seto seems to be the only one to understand that MCH turret is AMAZING against SAMs for example. It doesn't give Kazushi to the MCH when it ticks AND it increases the target's damage taken, which is a great COUNTER against chiten's mitigation. Unless you're only playing Casual matches with people who are still learning how to play, a SAM with the MCH turret debuff should get bursted to death asap by the team even through chiten.(25% mit isn't that much even before turret debuff)

Not one job is helpless against its LB and it sure isn't free for taking 2 minutes to charge. It's a fun job with a lot of nuance in how well it plays at each level. I'll tell you this much as well. If someone hit a SAM with chiten up and die afterward to Zan, they made 2 mistakes. One is that they hit the wrong target with their mitigation up, and the second is that they weren't ready for it. The chump messed up and earned that death twice over.

Feels bad because played bad. Tell them to get over it and do better.

[Valence]

Hi. I played SAM a few times and even got to Plat before!

Each job has 6 unique buttons. PvP is meant to be simple and it's with these tools that every job has reasonable counters to SAM LB. It's only hard to counter in a vacuum if you're trying to cover a mistaken proc against chiten. Mistakes, fairly, should get punished. But if you throw a cast against a SAM from range as a SMN and immediately throw on an Aegis, that's one way to bait out a 2 minute LB for effect. You all should know this, even if not all counters are as obvious as PLD/DRK/SGE LBs. Some of you even touch on the fact that shield actions left on CD are a waste (unless you're planning to counter because you see their LB gauge is up!)

No one should get to expect a free escape from a Zanny when they have half health just because they still have a defensive available. Seto seems to be the only one to understand that MCH turret is AMAZING against SAMs for example. It doesn't give Kazushi to the MCH when it ticks AND it increases the target's damage taken, which is a great COUNTER against chiten's mitigation. Unless you're only playing Casual matches with people who are still learning how to play, a SAM with the MCH turret debuff should get bursted to death asap by the team even through chiten.(25% mit isn't that much even before turret debuff)

Not one job is helpless against its LB and it sure isn't free for taking 2 minutes to charge. It's a fun job with a lot of nuance in how well it plays at each level. I'll tell you this much as well. If someone hit a SAM with chiten up and die afterward to Zan, they made 2 mistakes. One is that they hit the wrong target with their mitigation up, and the second is that they weren't ready for it. The chump messed up and earned that death twice over.

Feels bad because played bad. Tell them to get over it and do better.

Hard disagree because you're literally throwing a strawman. Nobody said jobs are helpless vs Zantetsuken (or at least, I haven't).

The real problem with people in those forums is that they love their talk in a vacuum, when in reality it always boils down to a matter of balance vs actual effort to deploy. In essence, this means that the more cumbersome something is to pull off, the lesser it's going to happen successfully, especially if pit against something that isn't. Now then, I play SAM casually and I don't think Zantetsuken is that easy to pull especially against skilled players, much like baiting good SAMs is easier said than done, they're not stupid either. But the amount of effort and specific circumstances to pull in order to survive a Zantetsuken with a big fat kuzuchi on you is not exactly a trifle, and requires you to have full HP, a shield that's not been chipped already, and the ability to survive after losing 95% of your life. On top of it, it also requires to find a proper location to bait it, which is easier said than done, and will sometimes just clip your whole team in the process.

I however main MCH at crystal level and I can safely tell you that you're dreaming if you think a MCH turret will save anybody eating a Zantestsuken for the simple reason that the shield gets clipped most of the time by the ongoing AoE damage everybody gets, and if it doesn't kill someone outright, they sure will die from enemies picking them up anyway. At best it's good for little skirmishes or duels, but odds are that if you're pulling this against a melee DPS as a MCH, you're seriously asking to be killed anyway.

[Xylira]

Oh boy, its another one of these threads!

No. You deserve to die everytime you get LB'd by a Samurai. Their toolkit is limited enough as it is. If you can't watch your AOE around a Samurai, Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

Yeah, but actually not really.

The net code is janky enough where you can attack a SAM who doesn't have chiten up, but if they activate it at the same time and you get unlucky enough with the server tick registering it first, you're SOL. This is even worse for MCH and BRD who have a short cast time on their main attack, which makes it even easier for a SAM to slip in a chiten before an attack even easier. Good luck to anyone that has a moderately higher ping, their chances of falling victim to this sort of thing is even higher.

So this notion that 'you deserve to die' is straight up BS. There are absolutely cases where you can do everything right from your perspective, but still end up triggering Kuzushi.

[Valence]

Yeah, but actually not really.

The net code is janky enough where you can attack a SAM who doesn't have chiten up, but if they activate it at the same time and you get unlucky enough with the server tick registering it first, you're SOL. This is even worse for MCH and BRD who have a short cast time on their main attack, which makes it even easier for a SAM to slip in a chiten before an attack even easier. Good luck to anyone that has a moderately higher ping, their chances of falling victim to this sort of thing is even higher.

So this notion that 'you deserve to die' is straight up BS. There are absolutely cases where you can do everything right from your perspective, but still end up triggering Kuzushi.

Can confirm that as a MCH main the times I die to this is usually because either of shitty tab target, unfortunate AoE cleaves (rare on mch), or being screwed by cast times. Although for the latter it's just better to ignore the SAM just a little before their LB is filled just to be sure.

[BaroLlyonesse]

Oh boy, its another one of these threads!

No. You deserve to die everytime you get LB'd by a Samurai. Their toolkit is limited enough as it is. If you can't watch your AOE around a Samurai, Can't keep track of them putting chiten up, or generally fall for their easy bait then you have bought, and paid full price for that OHKO.

Just remember: Every time someone goes "Another one of these threads LOL git gud it's your fault", there was a SAM player who whined and screamed that it was unfair for a MCH to have a ten-step 3% chance to OHKO them, that it wasn't "fun".