On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Yuella]

One way to save the Ancient world is to teach them how to summon Zodiark without the tempering aspect. So Zodiark would still shield them from Meteion but the ancients would not be tempered into being reliant on him and wanting to sacrifice more life. They can then learn how to deal with their sufferings and convince Venat to not summon Hydaelyn. There's still the question on how to confront Meteion without being able to control Dynamis but surely Azem will figure out a way eventually.

[Kozh]

It exists, but is almost certainly doomed. 2 Unsundered Ascians are still around to continue the Rejoinings and re-mantle lost Sundered Ascians. Hydaelyn in our own timeline was barely strong enough to possess Krile to speak to us, let alone provide the same amount of direct assistance she did in ARR in confrontations with the Ascians. Future WoLs will not have the same advantage we had.

Why? They have dynamis and better resistance to suffering, no? Venat deemed the current sundered to be strong enough to win against meteion, so they could just beat the remaining Ascian and get help from the lopporits to go to UT.

It's a trope in most time travel media that if you time travel back to the future after changing the past, you go to the new timeline's future and stay on the same timeline instead of skipping over whole timelines. I don't see why this would be any different unless the writers want to go out of their way to make some AU Ancients happy.

It's a trope that doesn't have to be followed by FFXIV.

It's not that hard, have the WoL tell someone else (maybe Themis, laha, and Emet) about the future etc., then went back to our timeline hoping for the best. And later on we were shown (for example, when we cross the rift of time and space) that they manage to create a better timeline.

[redheadturk]

The best kinds of tragedies in fiction are the ones you can't stop. They hit emotionally harder, and they make you develop feelings for the characters in a strong manner. Personally I think it's the best way to end his and Lahabrea's characters off. You understand them completely, know how they were as people, and helps you come to terms with why things had to end the way they did.

Gimme that alt timeline. I don't care if it doesn't hit as hard.

[redheadturk]

One way to save the Ancient world is to teach them how to summon Zodiark without the tempering aspect. So Zodiark would still shield them from Meteion but the ancients would not be tempered into being reliant on him and wanting to sacrifice more life. They can then learn how to deal with their sufferings and convince Venat to not summon Hydaelyn. There's still the question on how to confront Meteion without being able to control Dynamis but surely Azem will figure out a way eventually.

Dynamis weilding familiars infused with hope instead of despair comes to mind.

[Cleretic]

I think this this thread broke this subforum's land speed record for devolving into The Same Damn Argument. That might depend on if you measure by time elapsed or posts made, though.

Rest in peace, Themis Discussion. You died to the thing Elidibus came back to prevent: Ancient arguments.

[Denishia]

Typed out a too-long reply on why I find the suggestion that the surviving Amaurotines post Final Days (minus Venat and her followers) would be psychologically willing or able to shift focus to hunting down Meteion ludicrous even if tempering wasn't involved, but it's That Debate. And you're right. I've avoided wading into that debate any more than the toe I dip and there's no value in repeating it on the Forum.

Instead I'm going to think about Ondo Themis stuck in Lancetfish jail instead of the Crystal Tower. He can stare wistfully at the Ancient ruins if he wants but mostly he works on helping his people trade with Eulmore and explore the lands above and sighs when the old-timers gripe about how there used to not be this bubble of dry air at the bottom of the ocean.

[KageTokage]

The only thing I'm left wondering as far as Themis himself goes is what in the world they were trying to imply from his train of thought being interrupted by light surrounding him.

I really hope it's not insinuating that this isn't the last we've seen of him, because the boy deserves his rest after getting dragged through the dirt by fate and I have like...zero confidence any additional purpose they'd have him serve would make me feel better.

[redheadturk]

The only thing I'm left wondering as far as Themis himself goes is what in the world they were trying to imply from his train of thought being interrupted by light surrounding him.

I really hope it's not insinuating that this isn't the last we've seen of him, because the boy deserves his rest after getting dragged through the dirt by fate and I have like...zero confidence any additional purpose they'd have him serve would make me feel better.

I am actually hoping it implies a rebirth because that man got too hard done and he deserves not to have to go gently into that good night.

[SannaR]

To the OP that's how I see it with Themis.

Okay I might be dumb or just really confused, but when all the lamenting is going on its just their memories stuffed inside a soul (that might not even be theirs) post death correct? So how did Athena get ahold of any of that? Themis for example shouldn't know some things he does as unless she's able to do something akin to what Hydelean did with Emet-Selch's soul and yoink stuff from the 1st he shouldn't know about our 5.3 fight or any post sundering stuff. Heck would his memories even be floating around the 1st's sea? Even though we know memories and the soul are two separate ather components they're also attached to the soul, right? And we were told that Themis at least was used up when he sent us to Elpis. Eric's soul got reborn into Claudien.

So, I guess another question I have is where is all of this WoL could have told them stuff coming from? If it's during the parts that were in the actual past then I guess? But we actually manage to do what Themis told us to do originally and to not try and change stuff. Lahabreha seems to dislike Azem and is leery of us to the point even after seeing us in action he still doesn't like that what in his mind is a familiar made by a fellow convocation member so that Themis doesn't have to fight and can investigate incognito. As to why future him doesn't have a "It's You!" moment later I chalk it up to him having gone insane. The man also was willing to keep secrets and probably forgot all about that strange familiar. Themis well he chose to loose his memories.

[Cleretic]

To the OP that's how I see it with Themis.

Okay I might be dumb or just really confused, but when all the lamenting is going on its just their memories stuffed inside a soul (that might not even be theirs) post death correct? So how did Athena get ahold of any of that? Themis for example shouldn't know some things he does as unless she's able to do something akin to what Hydelean did with Emet-Selch's soul and yoink stuff from the 1st he shouldn't know about our 5.3 fight or any post sundering stuff. Heck would his memories even be floating around the 1st's sea? Even though we know memories and the soul are two separate ather components they're also attached to the soul, right? And we were told that Themis at least was used up when he sent us to Elpis. Eric's soul got reborn into Claudien.

To clarify: The memories seemed to come from the memory crystal that started all this. Erich and Lahabrea were etched onto random souls, but with Themis she somehow pinned down the actual one, probably because he died very recently, which is why he remembered the events of the not-as-distant past when Lahabrea didn't. Which... yeah, actually doesn't make a lot of sense, since he'd be off in the First's aetherial sea. Hydaelyn was still alive at the time, maybe she moved him like she did Minfilia and Emet and just didn't say anything. Or maybe Athena did it (she mentioned he was proving more difficult, after all), although I'm not sure why she'd have gone through the effort.