Thread: On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

That just falls back into the whole badly written time travel thing across the game. Alexander was a Stable Time Loop, the whole ShB storyline created an alternate timeline where the WoL did not die (which we're on), and then us going to the past and causing events that lead to the future which wouldn't have happened unless the alternate timeline existed from the very beginning, but it couldn't unless things progressed to the original timeline's WoL dying which...results in a lot of confusion and nonsense.

The way time travel has been used is perhaps my biggest flaw with the games lore I think. They just do not stick to the same set of rules, and so easily contradict what they had already said just a few hours back. Its a shame, because I do not think it would be a hard thing to nail down really.

On the other hand, I hope they could fix this one day by adding a ‘Time Mage’ job where the story is clearing up just whats been going on with the MSQ timelines haha.

Originally Posted by Lunaxia

So apparently I'm one of the few who found the whole patch a massive disservice to his character overall, then.

I genuinely hated it, I'm sorry to say. It's bad enough Emet-Selch's character was rewritten and toned down in order to give the writers' chosen narrative surrounding the events of the story a Villainous Seal of Approval, but apparently Elidibus and Lahabrea couldn't be left alone either?

I actually liked the way his arc ended in 5.3/ Endwalker. I like that he had little regard for our optional apology, that they all maintained their belief in their actions and chosen course to bring back those they loved. I like that they were fundamentally scarred, ultimately very different people from the ones we knew in our previous life owing not just to the effects of a lifetime of misery and isolation, but because they were still irrevocably tied to the past in away that we were not and could not hope to change. What made everything about their story so moving was the acknowledgement of all of that, and that we were not who we once were either, and never could be, and that the chasm between us, while tragic, could never hope to be crossed. It was good, emotional, powerful storytelling.

So I do not understand the incessant need the writers have to double back on what they previously established and consistently unmake everything that made 5.0 so great in order to loop everything neatly into a needless little bow for the sake of some cheap warm fuzzies at the end of the storyline. It's nonsensical how the characters that made a choice twelve thousand years ago to do everything they could to save the world so dear to them would suddenly be so accepting and at peace with what was done to them and how things ultimately turned out, and be borderline derogatory towards themselves for not playing ball and taking the sundering lying down. Elidibus did not need to view his actions in the scope of "saving mankind" to make them justifiable, because the whole point was that from the Ascian POV, they already were. It's just more garbage sundering apologism that drags down the entire experience.

Both Lahabrea and Emet-Selch never apologized for trying to bring back the unsundered world. Lahabrea admitted it was hypocritical for the Ascians to wipe out lives to bring back theirs but he said he'd do it without a second thought because it's his duty.

It already didn't make any sense that us being there in the past wouldn't create a seperate timeline even as a mere shade. The Crystal Tower was explicitly established to create seperate timelines, hell that's the whole reason why it was created the way it was.

And then we just got thrown into a timeloop with no explanation in a story that bend itself over backwards with painfully obvious bullshit excuses like Kairos being a thing and Venat not having any existing reasonable way or means of altering the timeline or even accidentally changing it via butterfly effect.

There is nothing "remarkably consistent" about that.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

We don't exactly know what causes one to happen but not the other

The writers wanted a timeloop in Elpis. That's the reason.

And the reason why they wanted it is cheap - they wanted you to know the real Hydaelyn, the real Meteion, the real Hermes, the real Emet and Hyth, for you to have been there in the real beginning and to have reach beyond the ages. That's the reason. They are not writing characters here with real motivations or worlds with binding internal logic to them that would lead to certain questions being asked about what would happen there, they are writing the warrior of light being awesome and beating up the power of despair because irl covid sucks and they wanted to give you something that's positive. It ended up being shallow for me, it rings hollow, fanfictiony and unexciting and as if the writers didn't really want to write it either.

I get that people care about the story, but don't fall into the trap of caring about it more than the writers and try desperately make it seem better or deeper than it is. It's written by many different people around an obtrusive MMO framework, a brand framework, has to weather inputs from people with differing visions and ideological alignments. It exists to sell a game. It doesn't have to be a quality story. It's remarkable if it manages to be good from time to time.

I enjoy dragonball a lot, doesn't make Toriyama a genius writer who gives two shits about consistency, doesn't make it a quality story.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

3000 words ugh

Regarding Themis...

Elidibus was as much a villain as an important factor to our victory. And his entire story arc in Shadowbringers is that he is but a hollow shell who doesn't even recall what and who he is fighting for. Of course those things are going to factor into how he is handled in terms of villain-y, especially compared to Lahabrea, who has been nothing but a burden and a roadblock at every turn, whose villainous actions need to be further inspected as he didn't get much focus unlike the other two unsundered.

Themis also puts it pretty clearly in his departure speech: he has no regrets, and all the events that led up to ensuring Etherisys' salvation were meaningful, both the villain-y and the heroism. At least that's how I came to understand his words, and I think it was a good enough acknowledgment of the hazy past/future he remembered, as the incomplete incantation that he was. His response also falls in line with his unsundered brethren as well, and he seemed to have the most positive outlook in terms of the current state of the world.

I do understand where you're coming from, but I don't personally think Themis needed to give more than what he gave to us, I don't think it would've added a lot more to his character or the story.

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The best kinds of tragedies in fiction are the ones you can't stop. They hit emotionally harder, and they make you develop feelings for the characters in a strong manner. Personally I think it's the best way to end his and Lahabrea's characters off. You understand them completely, know how they were as people, and helps you come to terms with why things had to end the way they did.

Tragedies are also more tragic when they happen in spite of people actively trying to prevent them or alternatively, because they tried.

Which didn't happen with Venat or us.

Originally Posted by Eisi

And the reason why they wanted it is cheap - they wanted you to know the real Hydaelyn,.

For good reason. After Shadowbringers, people were already thinking that she's an evil goddess who just wanted to sunder the world for no reason. Going back in time allowed us to see her reasoning and that it was not a decision taken lightly.

Originally Posted by Yuella

For good reason. After Shadowbringers, people were already thinking that she's an evil goddess who just wanted to sunder the world for no reason. Going back in time allowed us to see her reasoning and that it was not a decision taken lightly.

Well we meet Hydaelyn from the past, she could have well become a villain in our times. And she could have been reasonable in an alternate timeline as well that nontheless showed that person in similar circumstance.

So I disagree, it was about us having known our Hydaelyn from the intro and throughout the story, that was the reason. Because they thought it would be cool. I also doubt they write in order to counter fan narratives to be honest.

I loved how they handled Lahabrea in this arc too, that we were allowed the in-character option to dislike, distrust, and be curt to him, something not afforded to Elidibus or Emet. Not being railroaded into it earned more of my good graces. Still only really liked Erichtonios out of that bunch of NPCs but wouldn't trade Claudien remaining his own character post-raid for a Noah/Koh situation to keep Erich. I also liked that Lahabrea was at his most likeable as a memory-ghost and then to return to Lahabrea in the past where he's back to being the heavy-handed jerk inadvertently setting himself on the path to becoming the cackling destroyer of several planets so it doesn't feel odd that the next time chronologically for him that we meet is while he's pulling an Elidibus by possessing the body of one of our friends. I'm glad that the note we ended on was closer to that of enemies with mutual respect rather than the ephemeral alliance.

Themis and Elidibus, for me..eh, I'm glad he was a friend for Erichtonios who needed one. From his introduction back in 2.1 he was a smug liar adding some spice to the shadow council of hooded cliches, returned for patches, earned a bit of pity in 6.3 and that's it. As my favorite of the sad old cynical fallen heroes of ShB was Ardbert, distantly followed by Ran'jit, Elidibus's desecration upset me emotionally more than Zenos and Fandaniel in the "In from the Cold Mission". Also when he was the most memorable, never the more entertaining opponent but not the most unlikeable, even among Ascians. P11 felt like a lampshade hanging on how we never fought Themis/Elidibus when he wasn't puppeting stolen power, be it Ardbert, Zenos, or Azem via the countless dreams of those he was aiming to wipe out. Maybe it's because I was doing the new Ocean Route before and after that final cutscene, but Elidibus's fondness for the word 'sea' makes me hope that ending was just implying a sliver of whatever survives of Themis being reborn on the First as an Ondo with nothing special about him but the Echo and a relaxing life of Lancetfish Jail.