Dragon Sight change - Just remove positionals already

[Taranok]

But they're not? Back when we had more positionals and they were each more punishing... we also had fewer and less static (of) boss designs.

Such as? Because when I think of interesting fights they've done, I think of Neo Exdeath, or Leviathan Savage. Even Titan Savage when he jumps. They have limited mobility on some fights, like E9S where it just randomly jumps to a side, but 90% of the boss is just a stationary boss facing north with nothing changing.

Then I look at P2S and see the devs finally shaping the arena and limiting the player's walkable area and think: "Wow, why haven't they been doing this all this time?" Even P7S, the dumpster fire of a fight that it is, at least tries to be interesting, and it mostly succeeds at it in a way P8SP1 or P4S in general never truly succeeds.

Then there's literally all of Delubrum Reginae Savage, which represents some of my personal favorite fights in the entire game, doing unique things in different ways. The entire chess mechanic is just fun. And not caring about positionals in general enhanced the enjoyment, especially in the high stakes fight of DRS where deaths are serious problems.

Really, please, feel free to try to pretend fights in the past have somehow been more interesting when having positionals. They are extremely few and extremely far between.

[CelestiCer]

Really, please, feel free to try to pretend fights in the past have somehow been more interesting when having positionals.

Yes really? Lets apply your logic...

• Zodiark isn't more interesting then Hydaelyn
• Endsinger neither vs Barbariccia
• Eden Leviathan Savage worse then Titan/Eden's Promise
• P2S water-dog-horse is worse then P3S / P4S both phases
• P7S unironically even more boring then P6S due to optimization strats
• P8S phase2 is less fun then P8S phase1 in every way
• Rathalos EX better then Seiryu EX? really? like really? no really?
• Wanna compare ARR Leviathan EX vs ARR Titan EX

Anyone wanna argue how Bismarck EX was the best Heavensward EX ever in thread cause its Carapace had no positionals? And unless you wanna name Dun Scaith's Deathgaze Hollow, every alliance raid with a boss that has no positionals isn't more interesting to me either.

• Not Hobs and Engels vs TypeS
• Not Puppets Bunker's 1st boss vs Mustadio
• Not False Idol phase1 vs phase2

Trying to be more interesting? is not being more interesting. By your logic, lets not pretend just cause something has NO positionals that it somehow is more interesting either, cause it definitely wasn't for me.

Fun/Difficulty/Interests remains subjective. But Removing Positionals does not magically make Square fullfill an empty promise to replace it with something better in any way either. There's Zero proof... that positionals existing stood in the way of any fight design or mechanic ever being developed, mhm.

[Taranok]

Yes really? Lets apply your logic...

• Zodiark isn't more interesting then Hydaelyn
• Endsinger neither vs Barbariccia
• Eden Leviathan Savage worse then Titan/Eden's Promise
• P2S water-dog-horse is worse then P3S / P4S both phases
• P7S unironically even more boring then P6S due to optimization strats
• P8S phase2 is less fun then P8S phase1 in every way
• Rathalos EX better then Seiryu EX? really? like really? no really?
• Wanna compare ARR Leviathan EX vs ARR Titan EX

Anyone wanna argue how Bismarck EX was the best Heavensward EX ever in thread cause its Carapace had no positionals? And unless you wanna name Dun Scaith's Deathgaze Hollow, every alliance raid with a boss that has no positionals isn't more interesting to me either.

• Not Hobs and Engels vs TypeS
• Not Puppets Bunker's 1st boss vs Mustadio
• Not False Idol phase1 vs phase2

Trying to be more interesting? is not being more interesting. By your logic, lets not pretend just cause something has NO positionals that it somehow is more interesting either, cause it definitely wasn't for me.

Fun/Difficulty/Interests remains subjective. But Removing Positionals does not magically make Square fullfill an empty promise to replace it with something better in any way either. There's Zero proof... that positionals existing stood in the way of any fight design or mechanic ever being developed, mhm.

• Zodiark and Hydaelyn are both uninteresting fights, but Zodiark was a lot more fun than Hydaelyn.
• Barbariccia is literally: "I hope you hate playing casters!" the fight. Endsinger is playable by multiple playstyles while still being frenetic, and a hell of a lot more fun.
• P2S completely destroyed P3S and P4S across everyone I've talked to on it.
• All of Pandaemonium tier 2 is irredeemably awful. It is the worst tier the devs have released since Gordias. P7S isn't bad because of a lack of positionals, it's bad because that entire tier is bad.
• P8SP1 could be removed from the game and it would actually improve the game. P8SP2 is actually a fun fight.
• Rathalos EX is legitimately a bad fight. No positionals is a redeeming quality. The fight is designed to be a monster hunter fight in FFXIV, it doesn't translate well for a variety of reasons.
• Are we seriously comparing 2 of the best fights the game has made, where the best phase of 1 fight was when it LITERALLY IS A WALL BOSS while the other fight is ENTIRELY A WALL BOSS?

Sure, let's bring up bismarck. It's an adds fight with positionals combined with a target dummy section. It's one of the worst fights ever created. And its gameplay is dominated by positional fights. It's a bad fight because it's a bad fight but, oh, you didn't address my original point, once.

Bosses with positionals are more static than bosses without.

Rathalos? A hell of a lot less static than Seiryu. Engels? Constantly exploding the arena, constantly needing to shift about. What about literally all of Bozja and Eureka?

My entire point is that when you design bosses to need to land positionals, the fight design becomes more static. You can argue all you want splitting hairs on the opinions of which bosses are better. But you know what happened in Titan Extreme? The boss stood slightly north of mid and the players barely wiggled around the boss. We can have discussions about pacing and such but, you know what? Let's use titan savage.

The best phase of E4S/Titan Savage was phase 2/the wall. It's where the majority of interesting mechanics happened where they got creative.

Why not bring up Sephirot EX, where the first half of the fight, with positionals, is a largely static snooze fest, and the wall boss section after adds is a hodgepodge of rather interesting mechanics one after another at a decent pace, where the fight isn't static? It's not like you can just stand in one spot and DPS SephEx.

If anything, all you have done is made my point for me. The least static bosses are the ones without positionals. Hell, your own examples showed this. You know what you do on Mustadio? Wiggle back and forth around the hitbox while the boss sits in middle. Occasionally the boss moves and you just follow it because nothing interesting happens in the fight. What about Cidolfus Orlandeau, a positionless fight? You have to get inside the hitbox, well past melee range, move from platform to platform, take mechanics away from the boss. Cid is a hell of a lot more interesting a fight than the entirety of Abyssos, difficulty be damned.

What about P6S? It's a static fight largely bereft of actually good mechanics compared to P2S.

Hell, all your examples have proven involving Endwalker fights is this: Endwalker has created literally the worst fights this game has seen since Gordias, period. They're all dominated by favorable melee positioning and mechanics, don't challenge melee DPS at all, and the only example of a fight in endwalker you enjoyed are also fights that completely destroyed the meta or caster DPS population. Because when I look at Barbariccia, I just look at the fact that that fight is one of the worst fights the expansion produced.

But I can see how a melee DPS player would like a frenetic fight for melee dps in an expansion built around hand-holding melee DPS players at the expense of literally all other playstyles. I can see why that might be fun for you and why you'd the damage those fights did to everything else.

Even bringing up how P8SP1 is almost singlehandedly responsible for causing Paladin to be reworked would be lost on you, and that alone makes it a garbage fight.

[AsiTsurugi]

[LIST]
skill issue alert.

I am sure you will be playing melees the second it becomes "more fun" without positionals yes? Given that amazing "skill" you seem to be demonstrating with melees since ShB Post more about "having to use more than 0 brain cells is so hard and toxic and ruins fight designs for you", it's pretty entertaining to read that product of congenital cognitive deficit. Same goes for any other poster in here that seems to imagine that "removing positionals will magically make better fight designs" because apparently raids haven't existed in this game since ARR and postionals were definitely not more punishing to miss despite having good boss designs and fight mechanics compared to the uninspired variants of "in/out, stack/spread" that exists these days, that apparently challenge you all to no end. Oh and the forced 2 minute meta has absolutely nothing to do with boring fights this expansion, it's all just positionals, mmkay?

[CelestiCer]

If anything, all you have done is made my point for me.

- Positionals never stood in the way of any Fight design being made, ever
Zero points presented to disprove it. Showing what non-positional fights offer? doesn't disprove positionals existence holding back anything. Fights are designed around reaching the boss not around hitting all positionals. Makes claiming that they restrain anything quite bold. Not being able to hit all positionals doesn't make a Fight bad, it just means players b*tch over missing optional decimals that should be viewed as means to optimize - not the bar to clear a fight.

- Never have I stated to like Giant-Hitboxes
Liking aspects of EW/XIV doesn't mean I advocate for a game to be worse ( how did you get to that out of all of this? ) Ironic, as I don't support giant-hitboxes vs overhyping Wall-bosses that have the biggest hitboxes of them all. The " spoon-feeding-words " attempt was Cute.

• I focus on what I find Fun - regardless of Design...
• You focus on the Designs - regardless of others Fun...

Notice? I critique the game, but I ain't knocking your fun... Complexly designed fights doesn't by default translate to a interesting fun engagement. You may pick apart every example I named based on design, it doesn't take away that the once I happen to find interesting? more likely have have positionals. I named some EW fights because it's recent.

Endwalker has created literally the worst fights this game has seen since Gordias, period.

For someone championing fight designs, mocking ARR's Titan EX and E4S? That's your hill to /playdead on. I won't defend XIV's flaws... but, " DSR " is regarded as the best Ultimate by plenty. Vexes me to see a Heaven's Legend glaze over DSR...

- Fun remains subjective
As are players who want to disprove the values of positionals that others value when they don't play Melee themselves in this expansion... ( That sound like someone you know? ) Deletion of Non-Positional fights was never my stance. GL making it seem like that's my angle. Devaluation of Positionals is the direction we're heading, which truly adds nothing to the game.

- Better fights or mechanics are never promised...
Show me this " Amazing Improvement in Jobs " to replace positionals, and then I'll entertain the idea. Yet this imbecilic mindset... that we should give up Job features of any kind in exchange for the empty promise that Square will deliver better fights & mechs? Is incomprehensible. It's also a endless rabbit hole, as positional removal? is but the tip of the iceberg when it comes to " any Job features we can come-up with as standing in the way of better fight designs to be discarded next ".