These forums are weird

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Coming soon to a FFXIV near you:

Shadowbringers already happened, and was massively Successful, contrary to any belief here on the Forums.

[subatomic]

So having issues with the game automatically means I'm angry and bitter and negative? My man, you don't even know what you're talking about lol. People really should stop white knighting this game, it's not perfect by any means, and criticism is a good thing for the better for everyone, whether you like it or not.

Also, having negative connotations towards some aspects of the game doesn't mean I'm not enjoying the game. If that were the case, I wouldn't be posting here, voicing my concerns and having a conversation with other people to hear their opinions or points of view.

If you were Genuine in giving feedback for the game, you wouldn't insult people who Love the game as "white knights". People who use that insult are here just to fight and bring the mood down.

[Rehayem]

If you were Genuine in giving feedback for the game, you wouldn't insult people who Love the game as "white knights". People who use that insult are here just to fight and bring the mood down.

Calling someone a white knight isn't an insult, and your statement just proves my point. It's like an artist that refuses criticism and their art never improves, yet there's some fan that believes it's all perfect. This is the same mentality here.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

If you were Genuine in giving feedback for the game, you wouldn't insult people who Love the game as "white knights". People who use that insult are here just to fight and bring the mood down.

Unironically.....this.
Truth be told, how does making a bunch of Memes, Name-calling, and getting into Fights with People actually push your Message for improvements to the devs?
Im not really siding with anybody here. It is a legit question.
Its not like your feedback disappears just because someone else has a conflicting opinion.

Both sides should be seen and heard. Thats how you improve...the Good AND the Bad.

[subatomic]

Calling someone a white knight isn't an insult, and your statement just proves my point. It's like an artist that refuses criticism and their art never improves, yet there's some fan that believes it's all perfect. This is the same mentality here.

Actually FF14 is close to perfect. There are One or Two things that can be improved (I want more glamour plates >.<)

But the big things are all beautiful. I love the story. Love the new Reaper job. I love the new dungeons And I can't wait to finally fight Golbez as a FF4 fan.

You sound like you're jealous of my love for the game. No wonder you have to insult us. <3

[Rehayem]

Actually FF14 is close to perfect. There are One or Two things that can be improved (I want more glamour plates >.<)

But the big things are all beautiful. I love the story. Love the new Reaper job. I love the new dungeons And I can't wait to finally fight Golbez as a FF4 fan.

You sound like you're jealous of my love for the game. No wonder you have to insult us. <3

Wha? That doesn't make sense. Don't get me wrong, you love the game the way it is? That's fantastic for you, I'm glad for you.

But the majority of issues talked about really boil down to the way healer role is being handled, and the complete silence from SE's part. Homogenization of the game will only get you so far, until some will get bored and move on (or until they make another FF online). I think you were misunderstanding my original post to begin with, and assumption is generally a bad thing to cast upon others that disagree with your opinion, I'd say it's outright disrespectful to assume I hate the game and everything in it, or that I'm trying to bring others down -- that is simply not true. I have not once attacked anybody directly, but I criticize people's actions and wish to understand people's point of view. If you think this is wrong, then it's really not my problem and a misunderstanding.

[Renathras]

...or maybe just like Shadowbringers people will actually look back on it and suddenly remember things they did like about it....but in the moment I can see and feel some of the issues people talk about.
Can always be better next Expansion. They "Should" definitely see the backlash in some areas, and the praise in others and always work to further improve.
Its not as easy as many think it is to balance everything perfectly all the time and address EVERYBODIES Wishes and Concerns.

But never know until we get there.

I feel like this is what people often miss.

I've played MMOs for roughly 25 years if you include MUDs I played as a kid in the 90s. Most big MMOs have great expansions, good expansions, and "that one stinker" (like, LITERALLY all of them have "that one stinker" - think of any MMO you've played and there's at least one that immediately pops into your head as "oh, yeah, Ren's right; THAT one...") with a few "meh" ones that were not really good but weren't bad and were enjoyable enough. The not-big MMOs simply never had great/good ones, or had so many stinkers that no one really remembers the great/good one that they might have had in the mix somewhere.

WoW had Warlords of Draenor, for example, and there is a long-standing trend of "every other expansion (after Wrath) sucks with the odd ones in between being good. Vanilla, Burning Crusade, and Wrath were considered good, Cata bad, Mists good, Warlords bad, Legion good, Battle for Azeroth bad, and then Shadowlands worse - this was stark enough it has forced a major course correction into Dragonflight, as I understand it (no longer play) because of both two stinkers in a row and HOW BAD Shadowlands was that it gave WoW the dubious "SECOND stinker" expansion.

But there's an interesting flip-side to this:

Even many of the GOOD expansions, or ones seen in retrospect as good, seemed bad at the time. It's part of the Human impulse to put more weight on the moment than the past/future and not see things in the moment with good context. Mists of Pandaria was seen as kind of bad by a lot of people at the time, but then looked back on fondly in retrospect. (It also had that fantastic moment with the ghost dude that I still remember to this day - "When I was young...when I was young....... I. WAS. EMPEROR.") Even BfA had a pretty amazing moment with Jaina's mother and her (since I had quit the game by then, I only saw this in a cutscene video on YouTube, but the music and mood there just hit all the right notes seeing Jaina's past and her mother's initial rejection of her and the music as her mother brushed through the illusion to save her daughter). Even Cataclysm seemed pretty bad at the time, but by Warlords, people were praising it. ...as I understand it, Warlords and Shadowlands have not gotten the rose tinted goggles treatment, meaning they were both stinkers.

FFXIV has honestly had it pretty good. The closest expansion we've had to "the stinker" was Stormblood, but now in retrospect, it's widely praised, especially the 4.1-4.55 patch content, despite being pretty widely panned at the time. People attacked Eureka (and to be fair, it has the 300% buff now which HAS made it far better) and Bozja (which has not) at the time, but now people are begging for that kind of content.

It's REALLY easy to gloss over the good in times of trouble, only to look on fondly later. This concept is so Human it exists as a famous literary stroke:

"It was the best of times. It was the worst of times."

...a famous line describing both how some people are happy while others are upset, but also serving a dual nature if you realize that even people under adversity have happiness and people in plenty have despair ("Ra-La will save us!")

Is an expansion good or bad? Well, it depends on who you ask. But more than that, it also depends on WHEN you ask.

SB was seen as terrible at the time but now people (especially people that liked the pre-ShB Healing and Tanking models) say it was the last good one. ShB was seen as fantastic at the time but this forum frequently derides it as "the beginning of the end" of sorts. Even though, at the time, the reverse was seen. Some times, this is a case of "different people", but sometimes, it absolutely is not. The "when" matters as much as the "who" of which the question is asked.

How much else is there other than troll threads that take up a large portion of the general forum? Who feels like opening themselves up to personal attacks for starting threads on what they enjoy about the game?

People who have something positive to say at best are viewed as having an "agenda" (um...what agenda? Not like we are shareholders) or have "tired" points. These are some of the nicer responses we get. Meanwhile the 10th topic about how terrible Endwalker is - somehow new and refreshing?

This.

Can't start a positive thread here without being attacked. And even if you start a negative thread, it has to be against the "right" negative thing.

Is the negative trend getting a bit out of hand?

Yes.

Not only does it attack ideas, but it attacks people, and often involves more heckling and complaining than "criticism" or "feedback". Moreover, there's just SO MUCH negative posting that it's gotten impossible to tell what actually needs to be done. It's like the boy who cried wolf; there are so many people complaining about the most inane of things or blowing things wildly out of proportion with hyperbole that any ACTUAL GOOD FEEDBACK (that is, actual criticism) is drowned out by the churning sea of salt.

[ZephyrMenodora]

FFXIV has honestly had it pretty good. The closest expansion we've had to "the stinker" was Stormblood, but now in retrospect, it's widely praised, especially the 4.1-4.55 patch content, despite being pretty widely panned at the time. People attacked Eureka (and to be fair, it has the 300% buff now which HAS made it far better) and Bozja (which has not) at the time, but now people are begging for that kind of content.

Stormblood is still "the stinker" for me and the only MSQ I didn't finish during it's time. It was so stinky I unsubbed for two years. When I returned for ShB I was forced to get through it of course, and ultimately did enjoy the second half due to Hien and Yotsuyu, both of who I loved a lot. But boy was the early half a big meh.

[Renathras]

Calling someone a white knight isn't an insult,...

It is literally always used as an insult unless you're praising them for their chivalry. When you call people white knights, you're calling them blind contrarians. Yes, that is very much an insult. Don't lie about it. Either own the fact you're insulting people or stop insulting people. You VERY CLEARLY don't mean it as a positive or praise.

VERY few people are saying the game is perfect. They're saying the hyperbole is just that, over the top hyperbole, and they're pointing out the good parts of the game and measured changes needed to improve it.

Unironically.....this.
Truth be told, how does making a bunch of Memes, Name-calling, and getting into Fights with People actually push your Message for improvements to the devs?
Im not really siding with anybody here. It is a legit question.
Its not like your feedback disappears just because someone else has a conflicting opinion.

Both sides should be seen and heard. Thats how you improve...the Good AND the Bad.

People who want to be mad and salty also want the illusion that they are an unchallenged majority. Many also want to bring other people down to their level to join them - "Misery loves company...even if it has to make it." This, they think, improves their chances of getting the changes they want. It also means they will attack and attempt to run off or silence dissenting voices, since that breaks the illusion that their positions are universal and unchallenged, and those voices of dissent would imply they need to compromise and reach neutral ground with those they disagree with, something they very much don't want to do.

So they get into personal attacks to try and drive off those people and/or silence them. Ironically, these are the same people that will defend their toxicity as "well, we've just been ignored and silenced, so that makes what we're doing understandable and okay".

But the majority of issues talked about really boil down to the way healer role is being handled,...

As a long time Healer both here and in other games, the Healer ROLE isn't the problem. Encounter design and the Tank and DPS roles being arguably OP with heals and mitigation is. Homogenization is, but that extends well beyond the Healer role. The big issue that no one wants to talk about is the battle system is super rigid with Jobs/Roles supposedly having very rigid places in it, but then you get ones that blur the lines (like RDM) in ways that break the delicate balance that the rigid system is pushing for

In a game with a less rigid system, this would be fantastic. But in one with a rigid system, it makes some roles or mechanics broken or trivial or unnecessary or etc. The thing is, it's unclear if FFXIV can change from that rigidity. And that rigidity is what has driven things to the point they're at now.

The irony is, whenever someone points this out - ACTUAL criticism/feedback - they are attacked as the negative mob assures itself all that the game needs are some Healer Job changes to make Healer Jobs play more like DPS Jobs. Even when that has nothing to do with the things they use as proof to support it. Healer Jobs having more DPS buttons, for example, wouldn't prevent a TOP 0 Healer clear from happening again.

Stormblood is still "the stinker" for me and the only MSQ I didn't finish during it's time. It was so stinky I unsubbed for two years. When I returned for ShB I was forced to get through it of course, and ultimately did enjoy the second half due to Hien and Yotsuyu, both of who I loved a lot. But boy was the early half a big meh.

I honestly think it's because they tried to do too much all at once, and so it made the story feel disjointed. Doing the Ala Mhigo and Doma stories at the same time back and forth, but they were TOO separate, and frankly, the Ala Mhigo side got MUCH LESS share than it needed to have. We still can't go to Ala Mhigo city, proper. And if they were trying to do a "World is on fire overthrowing the Garleans from all fronts", then they should have had more than just "...in these two places". Bozja (an expansion later as side content) and Dalmasca (largely "off-screen" and only touched upon in the optional 24 man raid side content) could have given that feeling a lot more narrative strength.

It all came together in the patches, but it left the base expansion MSQ feeling kind of meh, and a lot of people also didn't like Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain Zenos (you fight him several times and each is "you have to beat him or the mission fails, but when you win, we just have him beat you anyway - until the 8 man Trial where he merges with a Primal super-dragon: THEN you can beat him easily" goofiness), so that didn't help.

BUT, it did a lot of world building which was necessary and paid off in both ShB and EW. So it has to be viewed in that context.

Thing is, at the time, it had plenty of good. Despite complaints, Eureka wasn't TERRIBLE even then, and the Ivalice raid series is probably to this day the single most praised one in the game's entire history. Come to think of it, so is the Omega series alongside Eden. It also gave us both an Exploration Zone AND Deep Dungeon (the only expansion to date to do so), four entire zones of said Exploration Zone instead of Bozja's two with a third that was planned but dropped due to pandemic constraints, and fairly good overall (OVERALL) Job balance, with some memorable battle content like Kuja and the Yotsuyu Trial, as well as the side content Yojimbo fight from the Hildebrand quest series. It was the single most packed expansion to date in FFXIV's history, I think, in terms of what all it brought to the game in sheer volume of content, and much of tht WAS praised either at the time or in retrospect after the fact.

[Rehayem]

It is literally always used as an insult unless you're praising them for their chivalry. [snip]

I guess you're white knighting for others too lol /s

On a serious note, I don't think it's an insult, and I believe it comes down to the fact English is not my main language. To me it's simply a description of someone who wishes to protect someone with my ardor and passion because there's nothing wrong anywhere. Defending a company though... Not my cup of tea, you know what I mean? I was like that too when I was younger, until reality hit me and I became much more skeptical and critical.

As a long time Healer both here and in other games, [snip]

I'm not sure whether this response is a direct response to me in any shape or form, but I haven't attacked anybody directly for their suggestions and/or improvements. Yes, the whole system is flawed, but it's unfortunate this is the way it's going to be, unless we wanna be on copium for 7.0. Either way, I'm still going to play the game regardless, just not healers in general. My main issue is that SE seems to be scared of change.