Should bosses get something along the lines of a mini enrage, or super TB?

[DixieBellOCE]

Tanks doing their job and dps not holding their own? Sounds like dps and heals need to get good?

This is exactly what the problem is.

Look this player up on a publicly available website and every recorded dungeon they have multiple vuln stacks.

Its 100% a skill issue, Move out of the bad.

But we are elitist expecting them to actually learn how to play the game after 9 years, right?

[kaynide]

What would the game do to disable the tank from staying alive or make the healer run out of MP/cooldowns in a way that doesn't already happen? Some sort of new debuff that bleeds health and MP?

The tank shouldn’t be able to indefinitely regenerate their own health. Some emergency/limited use is good (even clemency level cure bomb), but the mp regen is just too fast… or it should have a straight cooldown.

Point being, in a 5-10ish minute boss fight, the tank should run out of resources to keep themselves up within..say..a minute. There is a chance they can finish that last 5-10% of the boss, but not enough to last the whole thing.

In addition, the rate of dps the tank and healer do combined should not be enough to duo the boss entirely before their healing resources run out. Again maybe 2-3 of that 10 minute fight..enough to pick up dead dps, or maybe clear the last 25%.

The thing there means, healers would be using more hard casts like plain cure, with the cooldown freebie heals being more like an “oh $%@*!” button. There just isn’t a need for so many off cooldown heals, or there needs to be only resource-built up ones like the Lily/sage stones. The game has evolved in a way where healers rarely even need to hard cast heals (can only speak for the core game, not endgame raids) which is the root of the problem in my very humble opinion.


…that said, this is not the game as it is today. It’s close to what the game was 2.0, but it wasn’t meant to be.

[TaleraRistain]

The tank shouldn’t be able to indefinitely regenerate their own health. Some emergency/limited use is good (even clemency level cure bomb), but the mp regen is just too fast… or it should have a straight cooldown.

Point being, in a 5-10ish minute boss fight, the tank should run out of resources to keep themselves up within..say..a minute. There is a chance they can finish that last 5-10% of the boss, but not enough to last the whole thing.

In addition, the rate of dps the tank and healer do combined should not be enough to duo the boss entirely before their healing resources run out. Again maybe 2-3 of that 10 minute fight..enough to pick up dead dps, or maybe clear the last 25%.

The thing there means, healers would be using more hard casts like plain cure, with the cooldown freebie heals being more like an “oh $%@*!” button. There just isn’t a need for so many off cooldown heals, or there needs to be only resource-built up ones like the Lily/sage stones. The game has evolved in a way where healers rarely even need to hard cast heals (can only speak for the core game, not endgame raids) which is the root of the problem in my very humble opinion.


…that said, this is not the game as it is today. It’s close to what the game was 2.0, but it wasn’t meant to be.

So are you advocating that the skills should change in general, like longer CDs? Won't that affect grouping in general and not just the ability to survive when others are down?

[kaynide]

Not necessarily a longer cooldown overall, but certainly for healing resources, or to have less oGCD healing abilities (again reserving them for when they are really needed, and not the main source of healing).

Hard healing has a bit of finesse that I think makes healer jobs better (planning when to cast; when you can or can’t move; trying to time your cure to heal just as an enemy hits). This adds a lot to healing that isn’t just “use the instant cure when ally is hurt, do boring dps when not”

My fix is honestly to make mp/hp passive regen significantly less. Not to a point where only good players clear content, but probably where “bad” players get through a current dungeon end boss “running on fumes”/possibly with the tank near death.

I’m talking a scenario where “ok 1 dps is down, and we are at 45%…we might be ok…but if I decide to raise the other dps it puts our tank in a tough spot while I raise..and I might not be able to keep the tank healed after the raise with my mp down. Do I use a potion? Or do I need to announce this so the tank can put up mitigation while I raise?…or maybe we can just tough it out with 1 dps? Should be enough MP… I hope”

I remember a time in 2.0, where you ideally wanted to keep stoneskin and regen up as much as possible…but if you were doing that on every party member you would be struggling for mp about 5 minutes into a fight. That was honestly the most fun I’ve had as a healer- deciding if and when it was worth using stoneskin/regen at all, or if I needed to reserve some amount of mp for an upcoming raid-wide etc….
…of course this was also back when simply doing Titan-EX required the use of +vit rings just to have hp to survive his limit break…. So not necessarily the best game design in play.

This is a lot like how FFXI was, but I wouldn’t want something to that extreme.

…again though, I recognize this is simply not THAT kind of game, and if want to play something with harder mechanics, I can just play whatever that game is.

[Ayche]

Around halfway through the thread, I lost track if people were still talking about high-end raids, or like normal raid or is it now about dungeons....

[kaynide]

Around halfway through the thread, I lost track if people were still talking about high-end raids, or like normal raid or is it now about dungeons....

The main question was

Should bosses get something along the lines of a mini enrage, or super TB?
This would only come into play when there are just one or both tanks left alive, and the boss just does away with them after 10-12 seconds?

…and/or other ideas related to encouraging better/more responsible play and/or making it so bosses aren’t soloable/duo-able by a tanks alone.


Wasn’t really important on the specific where.

[kaynide]

This^
Most of the issues seem to be the NA players. JP players decide to hold their own and learned not to drag the party down.

Just chiming in, not meaning to be confrontational, but as a player in JP with a professional..chronic.. floortank of a wife, I can assure you JP are not unicorns and certainly have just as many super casual/low skill players as NA.

One of our good friends since 2.0 has YET to figure out Titan’s very predictable pattern here 10 years later. She celebrates if she just makes it to the end without getting knocked off. We love her just the same.

Also, remember, they made a JP tv drama that is almost entirely about a son secretly carrying his dad through Twintania. He tries his best…and they eventually clear, but he's an old man just playing for fun, not necessarily to be a good player.



We (wife and I) call them (including my wife) “tourist players”. They are here to ride the rides, gawk at the things and see the story. Don’t really care about learning the mechanics aside from the one clear needed to progress….and with her new BFF Y’shtola showing her where to stand in raids/dungeons, she doesn’t need me anymore D:

[VictorSpoils]

I discovered O1 has a 14 minute enrage. On the other hand, when I solo'd E12 I was able to go over 20 minutes without seeing an enrage. Shows how design changed at some point.

If you do A1 unsynced and survive SD, the fight will just reset with you still standing there. Thought that was kind of amusing.

[Ayche]

The main question was
…and/or other ideas related to encouraging better/more responsible play and/or making it so bosses aren’t soloable/duo-able by a tanks alone.
Wasn’t really important on the specific where.

Oh it does matter.
Even in normal raids there is no reason to punish the other tank just because the other guy died. Two tanks in normal/story content is exactly there for the sake of redundancy.

[Toutatis]

Soloing a boss can be fun. I occasionally do it but when I do so I go alone.

If the group dies, I’ll wipe unless the boss has little health remaining. Letting the entire team on the floor for a prolonged period of time is just rude.