Dragoon, jump locks and "job identity"

[Valence]

Those jobs are not prevented from attacking or using their kit, they just have to learn how to handle their resources for the specific encounter. However, one obvious thing is that the devs don't have a record of testing fights as DRG, and it shows. The biggest offender was E6S and even then we could adjust to it without trouble. I posted several things the job could get in another thread and allowing HJ to be used while bound was not one of them.

Fair enough, that was probably not a great example. But the point was that if a fight asks you more mobility than you have resources for it, you're essentially unable to perform, whether you say that "but you can still press the button" or not. But that's what I meant with the encounter design problem above: devs tend to design encounters to make sure everybody can uptime (especially those days... a little much). If a fight doesn't in some places (for example 3rd boss of Puppet's Bunker with the towers, there is at best 2 of them at melee range out of what, 8?), then it falls into that category. If the bind here is such a problem, then it's a design problem before a rotational problem imo.

I personally don't care that much but I welcome the change since we have to use HJ on hard CD because that's how the job works: everything must be used on strict cooldown. If a mechanic forces a delay, then this delay cannot affect GSK and HJ: you still press them and enter LotD but you try buffing the 2nd and 3rd NAS instead, that is, you buff later in the window. In fact, in a fight like P5S we even have to do an unbuffed LotD window unless buffs are delayed in the opener and all of it is done just so that GSK and HJ are kept on cooldown.

Several seconds can mean the difference to get an extra eye for DRG or not, which in turn can mean an extra LotD window. That's 1700 oGCD potency so "nothing" is not a word I'd use for this case in particular. Ultimates are filled with 31-32s duration uptime phases and getting that second HJ + MD there is huge for us.

I don't understand that reasoning. DRG is not the only job having to face that kind of clockwork problem when something gets delayed. I'm not gonna enumerate every job falling into this, but MCH for instance, if you drift a tool, especially Anchor, you're misaligning everything. You're losing potency by potentially missing a cast of said tool before the end (much more likely than a LotD window due to the frequency of the tool), and you potentially will have to drift it further or have to delay or lower your burst potency.

This is just an example.

This is why I don't understand the reasoning. Job rotations all have constraints that players have to play around. Sometimes a fight encounter messes up with those, and that's fine in my view. It generates skill play and team coordination. It becomes a problem in my opinion when a job is way too rigid for its own sanity, which has happened in the past with SB MCH for instance, but I guess I was one of the weirdos that loved the clockwork you have to keep up else the whole house of cards tumbled down. And I really do not think that DRG is not flexible with LotD windows, there is some tech and wiggle room to play around. Does this specific fight messes too much with it? Maybe, I haven't played DRG on it. But that's on encounter design.

Now as I said I see both sides of the argument, and having it tied to bound conditions is a little... weird or quirky in terms of how does this make sense design wise. That I could totally see it being debated. I'm definitely not going to die over that hill because that's... literally... one fight.

Also, complaints about the 2-min meta make no sense to me. Which jobs were the strongest in ShB? Precisely those whose burst happened every 120s: DNC, NIN, SAM... So the solution was either to remove most buffs or have them be on the same timer. At some point in the future, we'll get the former I'm sure.

I'm neutral on those. As long as I have team coordination of sorts for DPS jobs to be had I'm fine, and even then it's not my main concern about it. It's more about the loss of 60s internal rotation bursts that really annoys me, especially on jobs that have been made resident sleepers to play already on top of it.

Also I do believe that if 2min raid buff jobs are too powerful in the meta, then it only makes sense to buff the buffs of the others to balance it out. There is plenty of solutions instead of the lazy "delete everything without bringing new things in counterpart.

[Aco505]

I don't understand that reasoning. DRG is not the only job having to face that kind of clockwork problem when something gets delayed. I'm not gonna enumerate every job falling into this, but MCH for instance, if you drift a tool, especially Anchor, you're misaligning everything.

The difference is that Air Anchor can be used as long as the boss is targetable, HJ cannot if you're bound. No other action in the game has the combination of being a gap closer and generating a crucial gauge like an eye, which only happens once every 30s.

If the drift lasts for 10s, but you couldn't physically get another HJ in anyway before the boss leaves, then the delay might be irrelevant. If the 10s drift causes you to lose a use, then it's a problem.

This situation is less annoying for, let's say Primal Rend, because you can choose to use it earlier or later after pressing IR, but you can still press the latter without issue.

If the drift is due to player error, that's on the player. If the drift is because only this ability and this job are forced to drift it, then it's different.

It's like at the beginning of EW when NIN raijus were all gap closers that had to be used one after the other, NINs could do literally nothing during the binds of EX1. That was frustrating and bad design, even if (I guess) delaying in this case could have fixed it.

I suppose their logic is that it will be easier for them to create encounters with specific mechanics (binds, people being quite far from each other) without affecting specific jobs (DRG for the bind) or burst windows (buff range increase). I hope it lets them be more creative but only time will tell.

But I do agree that it was a bad move to change NIN's debuff from 60 to 120s for the sake of ... balance? AST is the last line of defense for 60s bursts, although I wonder for how long.

[Valence]

The difference is that Air Anchor can be used as long as the boss is targetable, HJ cannot if you're bound. No other action in the game has the combination of being a gap closer and generating a crucial gauge like an eye, which only happens once every 30s.

If the drift lasts for 10s, but you couldn't physically get another HJ in anyway before the boss leaves, then the delay might be irrelevant. If the 10s drift causes you to lose a use, then it's a problem.

I'm talking about when the boss just goes away, which happens a lot more regularly than a boss that just binds you (it's such a unicorn...). DRG is a lot more flexible in that regard, but also suffers from it to various degrees. Battery is as much as a crucial gauge that is a total loss of potency not put under raid buffs when this happens, and it happens a lot when bosses are away. I'm comparing it to it because it boils down to the exact same thing: an encounter prevents you to use your stuff on cooldown, and it throws your rotation and potency under buffs in shambles.

There is no difference to my eyes in the end result, and this was just an example among many.

If the drift is due to player error, that's on the player. If the drift is because only this ability and this job are forced to drift it, then it's different.

Those drifts happen all the time when the fight is segmented enough and your anchor or whatever comes off cd right in the middle of the interruption. I'll definitely agree that jumps are especially obvious "in your face" because they're the base resource for the main mechanic of the job. Doesn't mean that other cases are less egregious on the end result though.

Like I do think one thing that feels a lot more important in my eyes for DRG is its inability to directly go into LotD for any kind of opener, which would negate a lot the harm from extended downtime. But again, that's a specificity of the job, so is it really bad, or good for skillplay? A lot of other jobs are also screwed pretty hard by downtime, and most of the time it's the rigid ones (long in-compressible recasts with no charges) with heavy gauge reliance.

tbh maybe what DRG would have needed is just 2 charges on HJ, but what do I know...

I suppose their logic is that it will be easier for them to create encounters with specific mechanics (binds, people being quite far from each other) without affecting specific jobs (DRG for the bind) or burst windows (buff range increase). I hope it lets them be more creative but only time will tell.

But I do agree that it was a bad move to change NIN's debuff from 60 to 120s for the sake of ... balance? AST is the last line of defense for 60s bursts, although I wonder for how long.

AST and tanks, and some melees kinda in between...

But yes I hope it allows them to do better encounters. The true reason this rubs me off the wrong way is because they keep demolishing jobs in favor of encounter design. I couldn't care less about encounter design, they're already good enough in my book. But on the other hand, job rotations and toolkits are something you use literally in every type of content all the time, and I care a lot more about those.



Edit: also, I want to reiterate that I'm sorry since I'm playing devil's advocate since the beginning. I don't feel strongly one way or another for this specific change, which is mega unicorn in my eyes.