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  1. #21
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscah View Post
    That's moving the goalposts. You said there were no normal fights where players had to hide behind things that they did not control the placement of. All the things I listed are relevant to that claim.
    /sigh

    No, it's not. My point was it's a mechanic that people likely haven't seen and that isn't easy to understand.

    In ALL the other examples, it's pretty obvious that you're supposed to hide behind the objects, and not doing so also makes it obvious what is happening, which the "lightwaves cause crystals to explode but they don't damage things standing in the shadow of another crystal" does not do. The point was clear, I'm not sure why you don't want to see it.

    Look at Fenrir's mechanic. The fight clearly shows an AOE telegraph emanating from the boss. Do the Lightwaves do this as they approach a crystal? No, they do not. Meaning it's not even clear where the explosions are coming from if you don't already understand the mechanic and how it works. Garuda's rock pillars? Same thing. You can see the boss, you can see the animation of damage coming from her, it's extremely clear. Moreover, the rocks take damage and interact with the environment, so you can tell which ones aren't as good to hide behind. Crystal scorpion, been a while since I've done that fight, but I believe its aoe and the animation of it is very clear (the line aoe with the spikes flowing from the caster to the target?) as to what he is doing and where the origin is.

    Contrast the Lightwave/Crystal mechanic.

    There are no telegraphs. So you can't tell where the damage will becoming from/is coming from. If you take someone into the fight the first time, don't explain the mechanic to them, and the rest of the party doesn't go to the safe spot, that person probably has no way of knowing what happened and when they die, no way of knowing what killed them, where it came from, or what the trigger is. Even just the Fenrir telegraph (which shows the entire map being hit with the AOE and doesn't explicitly indicate the safe zone) would have made it better, but the fight doesn't even give that. And the explosions as I pointed out make no visible change to the crystal model, so you can't even tell or suspect that they're the things emitting the explosions since there's no visible tell before OR after to examine to puzzle that out. The attacks also occur quickly, meaning if the party doesn't know the mechanic, a wipe can happen almost immediately unless you have a Tank pop an invuln, so the rest of the party can't even see the mechanics play out to figure out what killed everyone since the screen will fade to black and reset the fight.

    This isn't "moving the goalposts", this was my entire point: For people who have not done Savage or Ultimate content (and maybe even for those who have), this is the first time that mechanic was used in the entire game, and it has no obvious tells, telegraphs, or ways to determine what's happening, and kills people fast enough to prevent it.

    For Statics that run stuff together over and over and figure this out for a living, as it were, they can get it because they'll run an encounter 100 times doing different things and having some players just stand around and watch what's going on. But you don't get that with PF randoms, and that's usually not the way PF works out.

    Extremes are not Savages, and are not supposed to be Savages.

    I remember the first time I considered trying a Savage (E1S), the big thing that got me was how they remove the telegraphs. You might get some of the Normal mode attacks, but you have to either look at what the boss is doing, the name of the spell being cast, or remember a set pattern. This is distinct from Normal content and Extremes I'd done up until that time, which might be rough but at least provided telegraphs so players could see what was going on. You might die, but generally could see what killed you, like Innocence's star explosion being knicked by the person with the AOE laser or you standing in the wrong color of Susaku's platform as the firebird flew around the outside setting the different segments off.

    But now, we're seeing that more and more in Extremes. That'd be fine if we had some other content at the difficulty between Normal and Savage to be between Normal and Extremes, but we don't.

    Content that you can puzzle out with a team of 8 friends dedicated to spending hours doing it doesn't work well for PF randoms where some people will join a group that says "learning party, fresh prog" and still drop after two wipes. Completely different audiences, and the Devs need to remember that.

    They already create Ultimates AND Savages for those folks. They need to remember Extremes aren't that. And if they are going to be going forward, they need to introduce something else between Normal and Extremes.

    Hell, they probably need to do that ANYway.
    (2)
    Last edited by Renathras; 05-09-2023 at 04:28 PM. Reason: EDIT for length

  2. #22
    Player
    Saraide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    3,082
    Character
    Saraide Derosa
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Please for the love of god do not call flood rays form diamond weapon limit cut. Look up limit cut from TEA and do everyone a favor by stopping to call everything that has numbers a limit cut.
    (3)
    Quote Originally Posted by Orinori View Post
    Aren't you the same Saraide who makes every savage pf blacklist you because you can never do a mechanic correctly and constantly causes enrage wipes? Pretty ironic to read this lmfao

  3. #23
    Player RyuDragnier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Gridania
    Posts
    5,465
    Character
    Hayk Farsight
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Saraide View Post
    Please for the love of god do not call flood rays form diamond weapon limit cut. Look up limit cut from TEA and do everyone a favor by stopping to call everything that has numbers a limit cut.
    People call them Limit Cut because it's the easiest way to explain what kind of mechanic it is. Every single one has its own intricacies, but at their core they are very much similar.
    (3)

  4. #24
    Player
    Iscah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    14,070
    Character
    Aurelie Moonsong
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by RyuDragnier View Post
    People call them Limit Cut because it's the easiest way to explain what kind of mechanic it is. Every single one has its own intricacies, but at their core they are very much similar.
    It still seems much better to use a generic description that gets the concept across even if you haven't experienced it before, rather than describing it as an attack with a different set of intricacies.
    (0)

  5. #25
    Player RyuDragnier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Gridania
    Posts
    5,465
    Character
    Hayk Farsight
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscah View Post
    It still seems much better to use a generic description that gets the concept across even if you haven't experienced it before, rather than describing it as an attack with a different set of intricacies.
    Yep, which is why we say Limit Cut, because that's what it is at its core.
    (2)

  6. #26
    Player
    Avoidy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    1,284
    Character
    Chadhadai Oronir
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 83
    Can't really comment on comparisons since I avoided doing current extremes until Endwalker so I don't have a solid reference point, but I enjoyed reading your breakdown of the fights. Hyd and Barb were the only two extreme fights that I actually enjoyed and spammed for fun though, so I hope we get more like that in the future.
    (2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Shialan View Post
    I don't get it. Do you really have nothing better to do with your life than creating shitpost after shitpost?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Tonberry View Post
    Genshin Impact a free to play mobile gatcha game puts out events every 40 days that are fully voiced and an engaging story. FF which is a subscription game with a full price tag does like 5 events a year and still can't put 10% of the effort. Something is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshida-san
    Let's consider another theoretical mod: one that displays your character entirely naked.

  7. #27
    Player
    Tsumdere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Ishgard
    Posts
    1,103
    Character
    Fia Mortivault
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeeqbit View Post
    A11S was similar to P3S in many respects though and it was quite a wall for a lot of people. It was the birthplace of limit cut. It didn't decimate the community.

    A12S had some simpler stuff mixed in such as donuts and adds but it was a lot harder because we didn't have things like gap closers or all the mitigations we have now (and a lot of mitigation didn't work against magic). It still managed to have its own sort of High Concept and people managed it.

    It helps that for the creator tier we eventually got cross-world party finder and the game's population has grown as well. When trying it on a single world you were meeting the same people over and over in every party or felt you had to get into a raid FC, whereas the diversity now means you can find a party that makes less mistakes making them more approachable.

    It's also worth bringing up the fact they got a lot of raid mechanics and eventually made them dungeon mechanics. One example I remember well was that in A10S there was a mechanic where you had to stop moving. In the next major patch, a dungeon released with that same mechanic and they have consistently brought mechanics down into dungeons, sometimers a bit simpler than they were in savage, slowly making these older mechanics nothing to people.
    (For the OP - I have cleared all Savage Tiers and all Ultimates.)

    That is totally fair - although I never said there wasn't previous tier walls or fights that were difficult then. At least in regards to the newer raid tiers, I was considering the DPS as well. E8S and P8S were brutal. I don't remember working as hard to meet a DPS check in HW/SB as I did than in those two fights. E12S is also a good contender in this department as well. Taking Shiva and plopping her into Alexander exactly as she is would have been a disaster. I was also thinking of P8SP1! High Concept is pretty simple once you get a clear explanation.
    P3S is just an exercise in misery. I can't imagine what would have happened if it was world only.

    The whole community has gotten better. My HW self would have never cleared Barbariccia, much less TOP. I thought A9S was hard then lol. I was minILVLing stuff with my friends lately, and we were getting through majority of HW/SB extreme/savage fights way faster than we were ShB (shout out to Brute Justice and God Kefka -Forsaken Edition- for being our only HW/SB mini walls). Also currently doing UCoB again which I haven't done since late SB/early ShB, and many of the mechanics are incredibly simple and slow compared to Ultimates now.
    (2)

  8. #28
    Player
    Iscah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    14,070
    Character
    Aurelie Moonsong
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by RyuDragnier View Post
    Yep, which is why we say Limit Cut, because that's what it is at its core.
    But the phrase tells me nothing of what the attack will entail if I don't know what a Limit Cut is.
    (0)

  9. #29
    Player
    Irenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    244
    Character
    Irenia Ataska
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 90
    Given that Limit Cut has already become common jargon for a thing people want to give a name to, I imagine the only way to oust it is to give a replacement name to oust Limit Cut as the term of choice.
    (2)

  10. #30
    Player
    Saraide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    3,082
    Character
    Saraide Derosa
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by RyuDragnier View Post
    People call them Limit Cut because it's the easiest way to explain what kind of mechanic it is. Every single one has its own intricacies, but at their core they are very much similar.
    It literally doesnt explain, it makes it more complicated. Limit cut isnt "oh i guess this mechanic has numbers". Please look at what limit cut is. Flood rays is nothing like limit cut.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Orinori View Post
    Aren't you the same Saraide who makes every savage pf blacklist you because you can never do a mechanic correctly and constantly causes enrage wipes? Pretty ironic to read this lmfao

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