Should bosses get something along the lines of a mini enrage, or super TB?

[Amenara]

I want normal raids to have an enrage tbh. I don't want it to require amazing gameplay or anything to meet, just have a reasonable ~12 minute enrage for a fight that normally will take <10 minutes or something. Dungeons I honestly don't care. When I tank fights and the rest of the group dies I just kill myself because it's quicker to reattempt than to solo it.

[SaltyDaddy]

You can't solo it. You're spanking it with a wet noodle, and will eventually get taken out by the boss's hard enrage

While tanks have better DPS than you... as a DPS role.

I would never waste others time on purpose, but I have soloed many bossess when they were 10% or lower, because of why not. Or... I end up soloing O12S unsynced first time parties, becase they dont know mechs and I know I will kill it sooner, than they will learn and not die. Just dont die and use that time for learning. If the tank is a big dick, leave and find a new party. But I dont see a positive point in your suggestion.

I want normal raids to have an enrage tbh. I don't want it to require amazing gameplay or anything to meet, just have a reasonable ~12 minute enrage for a fight that normally will take <10 minutes or something. Dungeons I honestly don't care. When I tank fights and the rest of the group dies I just kill myself because it's quicker to reattempt than to solo it.

Pls dont. With my experience, that would waste even more of my time. With no enrage, I can at least keep alive one healer/RDM/SMN, who will res the others. I had 15 minutes normal raids runs. That would not solve anything. And you can find some really bad people and not even make the 12 minutes enrage without nearly wipes. I have seen it all.

[Gemina]

While tanks have better DPS than you... as a DPS role.

I would never waste others time on purpose, but I have soloed many bossess when they were 10% or lower, because of why not. Or... I end up soloing O12S unsynced first time parties, becase they dont know mechs and I know I will kill it sooner, than they will learn and not die. Just dont die and use that time for learning. If the tank is a big dick, leave and find a new party. But I dont see a positive point in your suggestion.

If the tank can wrap it up an a couple of minutes, I have no issue, but that's not what I'm talking about in even the slightest. Nor am I talking about unsynced scenarios. I'm talking about bosses having enough HP to where it will take the tank a significant amount of time to solo the boss, which can happen in NM trials and raids since the boss does not have an enrage, or the tank will eventually get taken out anyway by a boss's hard enrage in duties EX and up. This could apply to dungeon bosses as well if the boss takes too long to solo. The positive is not allowing tanks to hold the party hostage, which you have acknowledged in this post wastes the time of the other players.

Despite what you think is a good intention, it really doesn't do anyone any favors. Particularly if you feel like players should not be carried to a clear. You also have the option to leave if the group lacks the skill the complete the duty.

[Jeeqbit]

The positive is not allowing tanks to hold the party hostage, which you have acknowledged in this post wastes the time of the other players.

It's not over until it's over. If one person lives, it's fair they should be able to keep trying. An enrage or super TB for there only being 1 person would affect unsyncing in the future as well.

Despite what you think is a good intention, it really doesn't do anyone any favors. Particularly if you feel like players should not be carried to a clear.

The game is designed around carrying people. It was the developers' intention from ARR. They wanted to match veteran and geared up players into duties with newer or more casual players, so that they carry them and show off all their skills and gear. The matching of different skill levels was always how it was meant to be.

Dungeons only need 1 competent player to carry the rest and this is what works. If required MSQ content was too hard, some people just wouldn't progress and would quit.

The solution to preventing tanks from soloing bosses is to just pull back on the sheer healing vomit the tanks can put out, no 5000iq 'I think this idea is great but will just make DF experience worse in reality' ideas needed. Just prevent tanks from being both a tank & healer roles baked into one.

This is exactly why we can solo things in the first place. There used to be bosses that just hit too hard, especially in 8-person content, combined with only 2 uses of Clemency at a time. Now we have so many self-heals that we can actually live for ages without even sweating. That isn't to say that we couldn't solo dungeon bosses before, but it wasn't always as easy as it can be now with our abundance of healing and mitigation.

[Gemina]

I still think your idea would, in the long run, cause more harm than good. When it happens on normal content, hey, at least you can go prepare yourself a nice cup of coffee.

How? You're not backing up your claim with a valid argument. If you think that this would be bad over the long run, then explain why you think that is. Giving players a chance to grab some coffee while a tank solos the boss hardly makes a valid case why this is a good thing. If anything, it exacerbates the problem at hand.

It's not over until it's over. If one person lives, it's fair they should be able to keep trying. An enrage or super TB for there only being 1 person would affect unsyncing in the future as well.

The thread topic is merely a suggestion. It doesn't have to be the way this issue is circumvented by the dev team. What the tread topic is pointing out, and what some of the posters herein have acknowledged, is encounter design. If a DPS or healer are the ones left standing, it doesn't matter if they execute the mechanics flawlessly; the boss will quickly finish them off through auto attacks alone. Do you really think it's fair that tanks have the privilege to duke it out with the boss solo if they happen to be the ones left standing? Can you say that with a straight face? You are a tank main with a seemingly level head on your shoulders, you should be one of the first people in this thread who acknowledges this issue.

The game is designed around carrying people. It was the developers' intention from ARR. They wanted to match veteran and geared up players into duties with newer or more casual players, so that they carry them and show off all their skills and gear. The matching of different skill levels was always how it was meant to be.

This argument works for casual content, or anything below EX. This content isn't designed for players to be carried, it is just designed so it can be cleared by players of varied skill levels because it isn't the intention of the dev team to wall players who are just trying to progress through the MSQ and NM raids. Even then, I still think the content shouldn't be designed in such a way that a tank can just toss the whole team on his back, and get them past the finish line. Don't the Japanese operate under the mindset of 'teamwork', and that one player shouldn't have a higher value than anyone else? Or is this just a farce? A western fantasy of the Japanese culture?

As I said before, I can let this crap go to a certain extent for NM duties. However, EX and above is absolutely unacceptable that tanks can survive these encounters at an extended measure until they actually win or the boss enrages. Soloing the remainder of single digit% HP is one thing, being able to survive an entire series of mechanics is more than beyond busted.

It's also not so much encounter design than it is just having some friggin consistency. Tanks don't always have this kind of sustainability in all duties. An encounter that requires a tank swap can quickly bring a battle to an end if there is only one tank left, yet not all encounters have them, or some encounters will have a boss use an unavoidable vuln stack on the tank, and then go into a set of mechanics that will allow that timer to expire before it brings its attention back onto them (e.g. Ruby Weapon).

You can check my posting history. I don't start threads a whole lot complaining about issues I have with the game. I wouldn't have brought up this topic if I did not feel it was a serious flaw within the game. The answer doesn't have to be a mini enrage or super TB, but I feel something has to be done about this.

[Jeeqbit]

What the tread topic is pointing out, and what some of the posters herein have acknowledged, is encounter design. If a DPS or healer are the ones left standing, it doesn't matter if they execute the mechanics flawlessly; the boss will quickly finish them off through auto attacks alone. Do you really think it's fair that tanks have the privilege to duke it out with the boss solo if they happen to be the ones left standing?

If they are skilled enough. After all, one of the attractions of playing a tank is that it makes you feel like a god. 100,000 health? That is boss health. Sign me up.

In ARR, for example, it did actually require some skill. To give you some examples, the cyclops in Halatali HM was something I could manage on Padadin by using Cure and Stoneskin. This was after ARR at least, but I could also manage the last boss of Keeper of the Lake on a Warrior. All it would take is being unable to do the mechanics and you could be dead.

In some more recent examples, I fought the 77 dungeon last boss in Shadowbringers on a Warrior and it was very challenging and actually required very good cooldown usage that I am certain most players probably wouldn't manage. But the item level sync is tight in there, unlike most dungeons.

I also fought the Amaurot last boss as a Dark Knight a few times and beat it. Considering their lack of self-heals, that also requires very good cooldown usage that has to be strategically timed to reduce incoming damage enough, to where you have a recovery period before the hard-hitting attacks return.

It's only where self-heals got out of control and autos didn't hit hard enough that this started to allow survival in 8-person content. I tried even now to go back and fight Zurvan on my own and I just die, even to the normal version, on both Paladins and Warriors. So I thought what about Sephirot that is scaled far lower and it still kills me after my cooldowns are exhausted.

[Gemina]

If they are skilled enough. After all, one of the attractions of playing a tank is that it makes you feel like a god.

I honestly thought your next argument would be that Tanks are the least played role, and as such have the right to this privilege. I would have gave that to you. From this angle though, any player who can flawlessly do the mechanics should be allowed to go mano y mano with the boss. Healers have some sustainability especially on bosses who break off their autos. There have been several occasions where I have been able to keep myself alive long enough to charge the third bar for LB and then bring everyone back. I would argue that not only does this require at the very least, equal skill as a tank with strategic use of the skills, doing mechanics, with a LOT less defense and mitigation, and also wise use of MP consumption, but you also get to raise everyone as well. Want to talk about feeling like a god, chew on that a bit. If you're eager to sign up, the game can always use healers who don't panic in such situations.

I can also argue that DPS players are some of the game's most skilled, with the least amount of privilege when it comes to self-sustain. Why are they boss fodder if they are skilled enough to never take unnecessary damage?

[TaleraRistain]

If the tank can wrap it up an a couple of minutes, I have no issue, but that's not what I'm talking about in even the slightest. Nor am I talking about unsynced scenarios. I'm talking about bosses having enough HP to where it will take the tank a significant amount of time to solo the boss, which can happen in NM trials and raids since the boss does not have an enrage, or the tank will eventually get taken out anyway by a boss's hard enrage in duties EX and up. This could apply to dungeon bosses as well if the boss takes too long to solo. The positive is not allowing tanks to hold the party hostage, which you have acknowledged in this post wastes the time of the other players.

Despite what you think is a good intention, it really doesn't do anyone any favors. Particularly if you feel like players should not be carried to a clear. You also have the option to leave if the group lacks the skill the complete the duty.

I can see the point of not wanting a tank with ego to decide for the party but I think on the flip side it can hurt people just trying to get through the content. I remember a particular E5N run back near launch where I was on DNC and we had a lot of new folks. I was one of the few left alive each time we wiped. We tried to help explain. It just was something wasn't clicking so most were really struggling. It happened about 3 times. On the fourth try, the two tanks and I took him down from 40% ourselves. It took a bit, but the party was cheering us on and having a good time with it. I know you had mainly mentioned EX but some on the thread had also mentioned normal content. SE has added enrages here and there even to normal content and they're generally not a bottleneck so I think they just need to be careful how tight they make things so they're not punishing players really trying just for the random egotistical tank.

[Gemina]

I can see the point of not wanting a tank with ego to decide for the party but I think on the flip side it can hurt people just trying to get through the content. I remember a particular P5N run back near launch where I was on DNC and we had a lot of new folks. I was one of the few left alive each time we wiped. We tried to help explain. It just was something wasn't clicking so most were really struggling. It happened about 3 times. On the fourth try, the two tanks and I took him down from 40% ourselves. It took a bit, but the party was cheering us on and having a good time with it. I know you had mainly mentioned EX but some on the thread had also mentioned normal content. SE has added enrages here and there even to normal content and they're generally not a bottleneck so I think they just need to be careful how tight they make things so they're not punishing players really trying just for the random egotistical tank.

Yeah, I think one of the most compelling arguments thus far has been this is actually a rare occurrence, and most tanks will just kill themselves in such situations, but I think this is mostly because they know it will likely be faster to reset than to solo the boss themselves. I can understand the mindset of just wanting to get out of there if the group keeps failing. However, this brings back up what I pointed out earlier about the strong dislike voiced by the community for carries, and players who refuse to get better.

I know for me, if I am having trouble with a particular duty or mechanic, I can't live down getting the clear anyway. It bothers me like nothing else in this game. So even with a green checkmark I will throw my butt back into that duty until I learn it. A redemption run, if you will. I know I can't expect all players to be like this, or even force this on them especially in NM duties. I've been in this situation as a tank several times, and it causes me a serious dilemma on whether it would be better for me to reset, or finish the boss off myself. One of the reasons for my suggestion is to also not thrust any other players into having to make that decision. It sucks!

[TaleraRistain]

Yeah, I think one of the most compelling arguments thus far has been this is actually a rare occurrence, and most tanks will just kill themselves in such situations, but I think this is mostly because they know it will likely be faster to reset than to solo the boss themselves. I can understand the mindset of just wanting to get out of there if the group keeps failing. However, this brings back up what I pointed out earlier about the strong dislike voiced by the community for carries, and players who refuse to get better.

I know for me, if I am having trouble with a particular duty or mechanic, I can't live down getting the clear anyway. It bothers me like nothing else in this game. So even with a green checkmark I will throw my butt back into that duty until I learn it. A redemption run, if you will. I know I can't expect all players to be like this, or even force this on them especially in NM duties. I've been in this situation as a tank several times, and it causes me a serious dilemma on whether it would be better for me to reset, or finish the boss off myself. One of the reasons for my suggestion is to also not thrust any other players into having to make that decision. It sucks!

It does suck, especially when you don't have a handy wall to run into or an edge to drop off. I will agree with the argument that it's pretty rare. The handful of times I have seen a tank stubbornly continuing on when the boss is still fairly high in HP (not at like 3%) they usually fail anyway and either don't try it again or someone's quick enough to boot them so we don't have to put up with that again. So I definitely think I'm in the camp where I don't find anything wrong with the type of enrages we've already seen that are lenient but I probably wouldn't want to see anything all that more severe. I think that would end up harming more than helping.