Play other games :)

[Semirhage]

I'm just dropping back in here to cackle at the victimology of "Venat criticism", which I recall pretty much always accompanied hero worship of the Ancients and declarations that we'd live in a perfect utopia if only we'd murder dissidents as soon as we detected them, like that's a *hinged* way to view the world, and doesn't completely miss the solid narrative message Endwalker at least tried to get across.

I've got my criticisms of Endwalker's storytelling, but "Venat criticism" has never not struck me as the seething of people so enamored with utopia they'd be willing to ignore...all of literary history's commentary on how idiotic utopianism is.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Dont you guys get tired of the same ol song and dance amongst yourselves?

[SturmChurro]

...

Yeah, it's less about wanting to take a break, and more about having to take a break, because there is nothing left to do. That is the whole issue.

...

I mean, I don't really blame people for being fed up. I myself took a break from the forums, just to take a break from the forums (not for being inactive in ffxiv), probably will do so again. It's now gotten to the point that it's not really fun to post anymore, and the whole place is a hostile environment, outside of the "show your.." threads.

[Thenightvortex]

I'm just dropping back in here to cackle at the victimology of "Venat criticism", which I recall pretty much always accompanied hero worship of the Ancients and declarations that we'd live in a perfect utopia if only we'd murder dissidents as soon as we detected them, like that's a *hinged* way to view the world, and doesn't completely miss the solid narrative message Endwalker at least tried to get across.

I've got my criticisms of Endwalker's storytelling, but "Venat criticism" has never not struck me as the seething of people so enamored with utopia they'd be willing to ignore...all of literary history's commentary on how idiotic utopianism is.

Believe it or not, one can simultaneously believe that a society is not perfect and that it doesn’t deserve to be annihilated in a way Venat annihilated the ancients. We get the point EW narrative is trying to make, we just think its nonsense.

[BRVV]

I'm just dropping back in here to cackle at the victimology of "Venat criticism", which I recall pretty much always accompanied hero worship of the Ancients and declarations that we'd live in a perfect utopia if only we'd murder dissidents as soon as we detected them, like that's a *hinged* way to view the world, and doesn't completely miss the solid narrative message Endwalker at least tried to get across.

I've got my criticisms of Endwalker's storytelling, but "Venat criticism" has never not struck me as the seething of people so enamored with utopia they'd be willing to ignore...all of literary history's commentary on how idiotic utopianism is.

"solid narrative" - that gave me a chuckle

Don't know where you get that all of Venat criticism is somehow supportive of slaughter. Weird take when Venat is the one killing a bunch of people. And your point is that of the Endsinger? Do you agree with her? Since you seem to claim that the Ancients world deserves to be destroyed?

[Theodric]

I'm just dropping back in here to cackle at the victimology of "Venat criticism", which I recall pretty much always accompanied hero worship of the Ancients and declarations that we'd live in a perfect utopia if only we'd murder dissidents as soon as we detected them, like that's a *hinged* way to view the world, and doesn't completely miss the solid narrative message Endwalker at least tried to get across.

I've got my criticisms of Endwalker's storytelling, but "Venat criticism" has never not struck me as the seething of people so enamored with utopia they'd be willing to ignore...all of literary history's commentary on how idiotic utopianism is.

I don't think you actually read what people critical of Venat were even posting, then. The Sundered exist at the expense of the Ancients and so the latter are under no obligation to just allow themselves to be wiped out because some narc masquerading as a 'supreme deity' decides to genocide her own people rather than sit down and have a conversation about her actual concerns. We know from their own admission that the Scions would never allow such a fate to be inflicted upon their own people, thus there's no reason for anybody else to let it happen to them either.

That aside, you realise it's fiction...right? People criticising 'mommy' is not at all equal to people being sent threats or viciously insulted for criticising her.

It's a bad faith attempt to deflect from the fact that many people critical of Venat simply wanted the story to be consistent and not suddenly approve of genocide and consider it to be an 'unfortunate necessity' just because it happened to benefit the 'good guys'.

[Hurlstone]

Believe it or not, one can simultaneously believe that a society is not perfect and that it doesn’t deserve to be annihilated in a way Venat annihilated the ancients. We get the point EW narrative is trying to make, we just think its nonsense.

To be fair even Venat fans can dislike how they handle the Shattering. The whole debate was not really as black or white as some would make it out as. I am perhaps one of Venats biggest fans, but I really would have liked more emphasis on the weight her choice had. Does not help that lots of what we know of that time is said in metaphor. One of the reasons why I would love SE to expand its FFXIV storytelling to things like novels etc. Lots of good stuff to be mined that the game unfortunately cannot explore.

Thats the interesting thing about storytelling I find, no one is really right or wrong when it comes to enjoying a story/lore or not. We all form our own opinions.

[TowaIsBestGirl]

No one is gatekeeping anything. Disagreement is not akin to allowing or disallowing. Heck, if anything it seems more like positivity is the thing that is discouraged the most on here. Sure there will be trolls pushing the bar, but if we judged everything by their standards then we are doomed.

Everyone and their father is a victim, I suppose. Personally, I despise the very idea of being a victim so I reject it outright. My own approach is instead of whinging and attempting to invite pity, if I feel like I'm not being heard I'm gonna keep talking and putting my views out there. Maybe I'm just beating my head bloody and raw against the walls of an Imperial Castrum, but I'm stubborn and very spiteful, to me the victim mindset is the true attempt at throwing the white flag up. If nothing else, I try my best to remain polite and refrain from attacking the person instead of the argument. Would that some present here could follow that fairly common example of upstanding citizenry. We teach our children these things, come on people.

I agree criticism is a needed aspect of any media, but to be fair though, the ‘posters that roll up to trash you’ thing often happens if you speak positively of the game too. People have even used the same excuse you say to justify being disrespectful of negative posts, that they are ‘just tired of it.’ You are right that such debates can fall into ‘mockery and various accusations.’ but it is in no way unique to one side either. It would be great if every topic could be well-written and throughout examinations of the game, but in this environment thats near on impossible to carry on past a few pages. Plus when it comes to subjective aspects like story, we are all pushed by our own bias viewpoints.

I find it odd and conspicuous how the convenience of both-sides-ism only ever surfaces as a defense for one side being assailed. Strangely when both sides are actively engaged in zealotry the -ism is startlingly absent. Curious, that.

[Thenightvortex]

To be fair even Venat fans can dislike how they handle the Shattering. The whole debate was not really as black or white as some would make it out as. I am perhaps one of Venats biggest fans, but I really would have liked more emphasis on the weight her choice had. Does not help that lots of what we know of that time is said in metaphor. One of the reasons why I would love SE to expand its FFXIV storytelling to things like novels etc. Lots of good stuff to be mined that the game unfortunately cannot explore.

Thats the interesting thing about storytelling I find, no one is really right or wrong when it comes to enjoying a story/lore or not. We all form our own opinions.

I don’t think one can be right/wrong about enjoying a story. People can be right and wrong about lore facts however, and it is a far too common occurrence when people deny or ignore those facts when trying to defend Venat. There are many ways it could’ve been done better, I agree, but it doesn’t seem like they are going to elaborate on this story arc beyond Panda/Myths at all, so it is what it is.

[Renalt]

Speaking of playing other games. One I recommend is UnEpic. It's a side scroller RPG that I come back to every now and then because I like toying with different builds.

Want to be the heavy armor Fire Mage? Do it.

Want to be a DnD Cleric with a mace? You can do that.

Want to be an archer who also uses alchemy? It's doable.

Want to be the backstabbing rogue who on occasion whips out a giant two handed hammer? Why not?

Plus I like the fact difficulty actively rewards and punishes you. Easy gets you constant health regen, enemies have limited field of view, and you have hit invulnerability, but only get 5 skill points on level up.

Hard+ mode gets rid of health regen, enemies will see you clear as day as long as they have LoS on you, and there is no hit invulnerability so you can be juggled to death if pincer attacked, but you get 7 skill points on level up...which means more options.