Endwalker is the most controversial expansion

[RyuDragnier]

You know, come to think of it, Project Meteor doesn't even make sense from a logistical standpoint. The project was initially cancelled because it fired off a laser capable of destroying everything within a massive radius. They were legit going to just drop this moon instead of using its ability to discharge apocalypse beams. I'm sorry, what? I get why from the perspectives of Emet-Selch, Midas, and Nael, but how did no one else in the upper echelons of the Garlean military not look at this and go, "are ya'll stupid? It's a reusable death laser, wtf, why would you destroy it?"

"Because Emperor Solus said it was a bad idea and banned it, and we do NOT disobey Emperor Solus."

[Absimiliard]

"Because Emperor Solus said it was a bad idea and banned it, and we do NOT disobey Emperor Solus."

Indeed, but you'd think someone would've said something once Solus greenlit again it later on. Midas and Nael were already lost causes at that point, but like... c'mon. One-off colony drop vs. laser that somehow does more damage than a colony drop and can be reused.

But I digress. Should probably get back on topic at this point.

Setting the Garleans aside entirely, I feel Endwalker's message may not have been well received by all. I know what they intended to convey, but many (myself included) did not see what it was they had hoped. To me, the message misses the mark. Rather than telling us to be compassionate and allow others to grieve however they wish -- or to grieve however we wish, for those of us that find ourselves in that situation -- it seems, at least to me, to convey that we should regard those individuals with derision, or in the case of being the one grieving, build a bridge and get over it. I got much the same message out of it regarding dealing with traumatized victims/trauma. Expecting people to move on and pick themselves back up eventually is not unreasonable, but everyone has to do so at their own pace. You can't just expect people who've been victimized and violated on a fundamental level bounce back instantly, or for that matter to maintain their rationality. It takes time.

Depicting the seeking of perfection as something bad also struck the wrong chord with me. Perfection is an unattainable goal, but seeking it is a perfectly reasonable route to becoming a better, more well-rounded individual. The key lies in moderation; you must seek it while also understanding you can never reach it and thus avoid being consumed by it. To myself and presumably at least some others, depicting the pursuit of perfection in a negative light is not much different from telling someone to just give up. Seeking to progress as a society was also cast in a rather negative light, which is another thing I did not like. To me, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a society wanting to eliminate as many hardships as possible through whatever means are available to them, so long as they're not trampling on the free will of their people or others.

I also felt Zodiark was completely wasted. We had all these years of building hype for him, but he turned out to be nothing more than near-mindless beast who got hijacked by Great Value™ Kefka and subsequently killed off without any long term consequences despite his having manipulated the world's aether flow so extensively up until his destruction. Beyond that, I was left puzzled by the fact they spent so much of ShB trying to set Hydaelyn and Zodiark up with the whole shades of grey thing only to toss that out the window in EW.

[RyuDragnier]

Indeed, but you'd think someone would've said something once Solus greenlit again it later on. Midas and Nael were already lost causes at that point, but like... c'mon. One-off colony drop vs. laser that somehow does more damage than a colony drop and can be reused.

I'm going on the assumption it's because Bahamut's rage is not something easily controlled, not even by Ascians, so Emet-Selch knew that it was too much of a wild card. Meanwhile, just dropping Dalamud onto the realm, who will release Bahamut to cause massive destruction on a global scale for a Calamity, is likely a bit more controlled. The Ascians could just teleport into Dalamud, destroy his worshipers, and walk out, letting Bahamut run out of prayers and energy and dissipate when it was time to remove him.

[Absimiliard]

I'm going on the assumption it's because Bahamut's rage is not something easily controlled, not even by Ascians, so Emet-Selch knew that it was too much of a wild card. Meanwhile, just dropping Dalamud onto the realm, who will release Bahamut to cause massive destruction on a global scale for a Calamity, is likely a bit more controlled. The Ascians could just teleport into Dalamud, destroy his worshipers, and walk out, letting Bahamut run out of prayers and energy and dissipate when it was time to remove him.

From that perspective, you've got a point. I'm more looking at it from the position of Garlean officers watching all this unfold. Realistically, they were never going to control Bahamut. But as far as we know, the only Garlean officials who knew anything about Bahamut were Emet-Selch, Midas, and Nael. Midas managed to get himself tempered right out of the gate. I think it took Nael a little longer, but she was eventually claimed too. To everyone else, it was just a superweapon.

[Hurlstone]

Personally speaking I enjoyed Endwalker’s story very much. Do I wish some elements got more attention or where expanded on? Sure, nothing is perfect. However I was honestly expecting something a lot more rushed when I heard that it was gonna be one expansion. The 6.1+ stuff has been a mix of some really interesting lore (6.2 is one of my top 2 favourite patches) to dull meritocracy. Which whilst deserving of discussion, is not the death chime I think people make it out to be. Besides, I am a great believer that art is personally subjective. If someone dislikes the direction of the story that is OK, but there will be people who loved it, and that is OK too.

As for the Garleans, I for one liked how they where handled. Again, its an element that could have been fleshed out more but I am happy enough with what we got more or less. Whilst I have some issues with how the main city states have been handled over the years, I feel the expansion lands have been well treated in how they have changed for the better. From Ishgard abandoning theocracy, to Ala Mhigo forgoing a single ruler. In that regard, what I am most interested in regarding the Garlean people is their future. I really hope in 7.0+ and beyond we actually get to see how the nation and people rebuild themselves, without the shadow of the Ascians guiding their hand. Plus the story of how their relationship grows with Eorzea can be an intriguing one. There is a lot both nations can achieve by working together and sharing, but no doubt those wounds of war are gonna be stinging for a long time.

[TowaIsBestGirl]

Wait, wasn't the vast majority of Meteor helmed by Legatus van Darnus? She was tempered by Bahamut, was she not? It's been a while so perhaps I'm missing details, but if that's true then the whole genocide thing cannot even be blamed purely on Garlemald alone. Not to mention, the true plan was undoubtedly to just bring the Hound of Menphina low enough and weaken it so that Bahamut may burst free and wreak his vengeance. Which he did, at least until that vile villain Archon Louisoix interfered.

All I know is that the decision to make "It was Ascians all along!" the underlying hand guiding the Garlean empire cheapened the setting and laid the foundation for what would later become an unsalvageable situation.

At this point I would have gladly traded away Emet and what became of his character for more of a focus on Varis in the story. He was always too similar to Ardyn for my liking but at least Ardyn kept his dignity by the end of FFXV. A fleshed out Varis and other members of the royal family could have helped pave the way for Garlemald pivoting in the direction of Archades but I suppose it was easier to just let Zenos mess the entire country up.

I just wanted to see more of the women of Garlemald's royalty. A lot of the more interesting tidbits we were fed throughout Shadowbringers and Endwalker about the internal politics of Garlemald were heavily interesting to me, but then they were sacrificed on the altar of Zenos viator Galvus and his failwife Fandaniel. Not the fairest trade, gotta say. It's gonna be smarting for a while, I suspect.

Rest in peace, Populares. Your grave shall be light and shallow, indeed.

[TheMightyMollusk]

And Allag, also mentioned (just two sentences after), predates them by two Umbral Calamities more, no?

According to Encyclopedia Eorzea, Allag's fall was the cause of, and caused by, the Fourth Calamity. It took about 1500 years for civilization to start getting back on its feet, and Mhach, Amdapor, and Nym came a bit later during the Fifth Era. The War of the Magi was the cause of the Fifth Calamity.

Yet, I wasn't aware the latest set of civilizations had to be present for something to be part of the history of the same continent?

Eorzea isn't just a body of 6* "civilized" nations (and many others outside that descriptor). It's... also the continent itself, with more than 12 eras of history -- the continent on which, yes, the War of the Magi took place, and from which the Allagan Empire started its conquest outword.

* Ishard, Ala Mhigo, Sharlayan, Gridania, Ul'duh, and Limsa Lominsa, with two others only pretty recently having dropped from the count.

Those historical mentions don't seem a warrant for "modern Eorzea deserved whatever the Garleans threw at them*," mind you -- only that the Garleans are far from some outlier, even compared to just the events seen on Eorzea itself, let alone the wider world.

* Though, yes, the majority of our citystates were frequently amoral perpetrators of war crimes and the pogrom-equivalents, spent time as despotic theocracies, etc.

In the context of the discussion, events that happened thousands of years ago are logically irrelevant, because aside from the dragons and the Ascians, none of the people or civilizations involved were anywhere close to existing yet. Bringing Allag or the War of the Magi into it is like blaming the Vikings for Twitter.

[Absimiliard]

In the context of the discussion, events that happened thousands of years ago are logically irrelevant, because aside from the dragons and the Ascians, none of the people or civilizations involved were anywhere close to existing yet. Bringing Allag or the War of the Magi into it is like blaming the Vikings for Twitter.

That... isn't the point, though? A poster claimed the Garleans were the worst perpetrators of atrocities ever. The poster you replied to, as well as myself, observed that they are, if anything, far from being the outliers on this one.

[TheMightyMollusk]

That... isn't the point, though? A poster claimed the Garleans were the worst perpetrators of atrocities ever. The poster you replied to, as well as myself, observed that they are, if anything, far from being the outliers on this one.

"Everyone else is equally terrible" feels like a really weird stance to take.

[Shurrikhan]

In the context of the discussion, events that happened thousands of years ago are logically irrelevant, because aside from the dragons and the Ascians, none of the people or civilizations involved were anywhere close to existing yet. Bringing Allag or the War of the Magi into it is like blaming the Vikings for Twitter.

The claim being refuted, though, was that the Garleans were uniquely bad across all time and space (out of anyone anywhere, ever). How then are those connections "irrelevant"?

According to Encyclopedia Eorzea, Allag's fall was the cause of, and caused by, the Fourth Calamity. It took about 1500 years for civilization to start getting back on its feet, and Mhach, Amdapor, and Nym came a bit later during the Fifth Era. The War of the Magi was the cause of the Fifth Calamity.

The Allagan Empire existed in the Third Astral and caused the Fourth Umbral Era. Mhach, Amdapor, and Nym existed during the Fifth Astral and, with the Great Flood that ended the War of the Magi, ushered in the Sixth Umbral Era. (The history of the Source begins with the Umbral, not the Astral.)

Those are... two apart. Which is the reason for saying that the Calamity caused by the Allagans (tearing a rift open into the void and annihilating most civilization with the resulting earthquakes) and by Mhach, Amdapor, and Nym were "two Umbral Calamities apart." They... were. So I'm not sure what you're trying to nitpick here.

"Everyone else is equally terrible" feels like a really weird stance to take.

So is recency bias. Regardless, that's the evidence the game puts forth. The claim was made that the Garleans were uniquely bad, so what evidence obviously stood contrary to it was brought up, as it normally should be. That was all.