Endwalker is the most controversial expansion

[DPZ2]

I strongly disagree that the Garlean people are being handled with due sympathy in Endwalker. The Eorzean Alliance is going about "helping" them in a way that comes off as extremely predatory and ill-intentioned

The primary purpose of the Eorzean Alliance was to take the fight to the Telophoroi in Garlemald.

What they found, once there, was a bunch of frightened people and a whole lot of tempered imperial soldiers. Aid was provided, if not appreciated or accepted, to the frightened people who were not tempered. Where possible, aid in the form of untempering the soldiers was attempted.

I don't know where you got the idea that this aid was either predatory or ill-intentioned.

[Dikatis]

Anywho, to tl;dr it: I strongly disagree that the Garlean people are being handled with due sympathy in Endwalker. The Eorzean Alliance is going about "helping" them in a way that comes off as extremely predatory and ill-intentioned. I further disagree that the Ala Mhigans are in any way sympathetic, given the atrocities they have knowingly and willingly engaged in.

Now, with all this being said, we've gotten waaaayyy off the original topic. None of this has anything to do with Endwalker being controversial, but the fact this thread has garnered a fair amount of attention does kind of lend credence to the idea it was.

Yes, the Eorzeans are clearly predatory and ill-intentioned by... feeding the starving Garleans, repairing their broken heaters, risking Eorzean lives to cure the IIIrd and Ist Legions of tempering at no benefit to themselves, rescuing civilians trapped in rubble, and defending them from monsters and voidsent while they work to rebuild Garlemald. And this is AFTER Quintus took Alphinaud and Alisaie, who offered all of this humanitarian aid for free, hostage. the Eorzeans benefitted by... getting useful information that they used to further help the Garlean people by killing Anima and thus ending further tempering of the people of Garlemald.

In a very different context than the one you are purporting, one the Garlean people had no knowledge of or control over. However, it failed; there was no genocide. Not a single race went extinct as a result of Dalamud's fall and/or Bahamut's rampage, and no ethnic, religious, or national groups died out because of it. Notably, cultural destruction does not in fact constitute genocide as defined in the Oxford dictionary. Nael certainly did try, though. Gaius, for his part, found the whole thing abhorrent.

So you admit that Dalamud was a weapon of genocide? And that the Garleans tried to wipe out the races of Eorzea for personal profit?

You're right in that Endwalker is a controversial expansion, but you're actively performing mental gymnastics to justify your hatred of the story and your lionizing of the Garlean Empire instead of engaging with what's shown. There's nothing wrong with being critical of EW and the MSQ, but the way you're going about it makes it seem like you're entering the discussion in bad faith by not providing sources and by downplaying the atrocities performed by the Garlean Empire even if you don't mean to.

[Absimiliard]

I don't know where you got the idea that this aid was either predatory or ill-intentioned.

100% quest completion and some NPC dialogue.

Yes, the Eorzeans are clearly predatory and ill-intentioned by... feeding the starving Garleans, repairing their broken heaters, risking Eorzean lives to cure the IIIrd and Ist Legions of tempering at no benefit to themselves, rescuing civilians trapped in rubble, and defending them from monsters and voidsent while they work to rebuild Garlemald. And this is AFTER Quintus took Alphinaud and Alisaie, who offered all of this humanitarian aid for free, hostage. the Eorzeans benefitted by... getting useful information that they used to further help the Garlean people by killing Anima and thus ending further tempering of the people of Garlemald.

Oh yes, they certainly have been helping. I'm not denying that. But it isn't the act of pure altruism you're presenting it as. I would recommend playing through the story again when you get the chance, and really paying close attention to what's going on. You might just see what I'm referring to, although to be honest I think you already know exactly what it is I am talking about.

So you admit that Dalamud was a weapon of genocide? And that the Garleans tried to wipe out the races of Eorzea for personal profit?

You're right in that Endwalker is a controversial expansion, but you're actively performing mental gymnastics to justify your hatred of the story and your lionizing of the Garlean Empire instead of engaging with what's shown. There's nothing wrong with being critical of EW and the MSQ, but the way you're going about it makes it seem like you're entering the discussion in bad faith by not providing sources and by downplaying the atrocities performed by the Garlean Empire even if you don't mean to.

Now you're just being openly disingenuous. You are both knowingly mischaracterizing the (stated) intent behind, proposed scale of, and (stated) intended targets of Project Meteor and attempting to infer that our current discussion about the Garleans is in any way related to the controversial nature of Endwalker outside the specific window of their involvement in it. Your own source on Project Meteor details its intended targets so far as the Garlean officials were aware, and "all of Eorzea" is not mentioned. You are fully aware that this entire discussion has been a thread derail, not an addition to what was already being considered. Given the content of your prior posts, it's rather pointless to pretend otherwise now. You are also now demanding sources despite already knowing full well where everything I mentioned came from, with you even having provided one of the same sources I used.

To be blunt, I've been under the impression you were approaching this debate in bad faith for quite some time now. Your own source shot down your argument pretty much as soon as you used it, but you kept trying to, despite it clearly saying beastmen and their eikons, insinuate the stated intent was to obliterate all of Eorzea with it. You also keep intentionally conflating the Garlean people with their rulers/military, when even the game itself has made the distinction between these groups very clear for quite a long time. It isn't like the average Garlean had any say in who their leaders were, let alone what they did.

[Dikatis]

Now you're just being openly disingenuous. You are both knowingly mischaracterizing the intent behind, proposed scale of, and intended targets of Project Meteor and attempting to infer that our current discussion about the Garleans is in any way related to the controversial nature of Endwalker outside the specific window of their involvement in it. You are fully aware that this entire discussion has been a thread derail, not an addition to what was already being considered. Given the content of your prior posts, it's rather pointless to pretend otherwise now. You are also now demanding sources despite already knowing full well where everything I mentioned came from, with you even having provided one of the sources I used for me.

What are you talking about? The proposed scale of Project Meteor is to flatten all of Eorzea and leave nothing but ashes and rubble. That's the whole reason why Gaius opposed it. It's dropping an entire moon onto the Earth. This is how the Gulf of Mexico was created. The same level of impact as the Yucatan meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs. What kind of effect did you imagine Project Meteor would have? If you're so confident in your opihnions, drop some evidence.

What is more, those who report to us from throughout the realm tell that Limsa Lominsa and Ul’dah, too, now bend beneath the crushing advance of the Empire. If things continue in this fashion, the one called van Darnus will see his meteor ambitions realized, and then… what little remains of Eorzea will fall under the deathly dominion of Garlemald. Never has the need been greater for the three nations to unite. The Eorzean Alliance must be remade.

Better to conquer a realm than a void. What is the value in ruling over emptiness─over nothing!? I do not wish to live to see another Bozja Citadel. If you succeed in bringing down Dalamud, all of Eorzea will cease to be.

It's relevant ot the discussion because you refuse to actually engage with me and just brush off all of my contrary evidence to your idea that the Garlean Empire is apparently more sympathetic than any of the city-states of Eorzean states despite Garlemald's atrocities and that the Eorzean states are predatory in any way toward the Garlean refugees. You refuse to provide sources and invent headcanon to villainize Eorzea to the extent that you can declare the story awful instead of actually judging the story by its own merits and flaws. Even now you call my discussion "pointless" because you don't want to engage with it.

Explain how the Ilsabardian Contingent is in any way predatory toward the Garlean refugees. Explain how Garlemald is morally better than Ala Mhigo when Project Meteor and Black Rose were intended to wipe out entire continents full of people.

[Carin-Eri]

What are you talking about? The proposed scale of Project Meteor is to flatten all of Eorzea and leave nothing but ashes and rubble. That's the whole reason why Gaius opposed it. It's dropping an entire moon onto the Earth. This is how the Gulf of Mexico was created. The same level of impact as the Yucatan meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs. What kind of effect did you imagine Project Meteor would have? If you're so confident in your opihnions, drop some evidence.





It's relevant ot the discussion because you refuse to actually engage with me and just brush off all of my contrary evidence to your idea that the Garlean Empire is apparently more sympathetic than any of the city-states of Eorzean states despite Garlemald's atrocities and that the Eorzean states are predatory in any way toward the Garlean refugees. You refuse to provide sources and invent headcanon to villainize Eorzea to the extent that you can declare the story awful instead of actually judging the story by its own merits and flaws. Even now you call my discussion "pointless" because you don't want to engage with it.

Explain how the Ilsabardian Contingent is in any way predatory toward the Garlean refugees. Explain how Garlemald is morally better than Ala Mhigo when Project Meteor and Black Rose were intended to wipe out entire continents full of people.

Also probably worth noting that, in another timeline, Black Rose was unleashed and did indeed wipe out entire continents.

[Kazhar]

Also probably worth noting that, in another timeline, Black Rose was unleashed and did indeed wipe out entire continents.

The plan wasn't to wipe continents though, it was purposely overloaded by the Ascians. It is a weapon of mass destruction but the scale was much higher than what Varys intended.

[Absimiliard]

What are you talking about? The proposed scale of Project Meteor is to flatten all of Eorzea and leave nothing but ashes and rubble. That's the whole reason why Gaius opposed it. It's dropping an entire moon onto the Earth. This is how the Gulf of Mexico was created. The same level of impact as the Yucatan meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs. What kind of effect did you imagine Project Meteor would have? If you're so confident in your opihnions, drop some evidence.

My opinion on the kind of damage Dalamud could've caused is kind of irrelevant since we have NPCs commenting on how bad it could've been versus how much worse Bahamut getting loose was. But, if we want to go that route, consider this: The Yucatan meteor was somewhere between 11km and 81km in diameter, and the general consensus is that it was made up of carbonaceous chondrite. It was both highly dense and uniform. It left behind a crater roughly 150 kilometers in diameter, or just over 93 miles. Based on several factors, we can readily determine that Dalamud was most likely within or slightly below the lower end of this meteor's size-estimate range. Moreover, its composition was not uniform. The inside of Dalamud was largely hollow, to allow for various machines as well as the imprisoned Bahamut and meracydians. Eorzea itself is actually quite massive despite how small its zones are in-game, and the land is noted to be abnormally resilient. Additionally, Etheirys appears to be equal to or slightly greater than the Earth in size. We can only estimate Dalamud's size, and there's really no way to determine its mass without a fair bit of guess-work unless Square-Enix provides more data, but it's reasonable to expect it wouldn't have anywhere near the mass of the Yucatan meteor even if we are very generous in our estimates. Velocity is also an important factor in determining the kind of damage you'll get from an impact, and the falling moon would not have had anything close to the Yucatan meteor's velocity without an extremely powerful external source propelling it, which it is never shown or stated to have. We are instead shown parts of it breaking off and falling at far more normal speeds for an object dropping from such height. Would the false moon itself have destroyed Eorzea? No, if you want me to draw my own conclusions based on the math, it would not have. It would have caused a lot of damage, but it wouldn't have been enough to wipe the continent clean. It would doubtless have left the Eorzeans helpless against the Garlean Empire, and they would definitely have lost much of their ability to sustain themselves, but it would not be a definitive end.

Now Bahamut on the other hand... If he'd gotten off that teraflare, there might not have been an Eorzea anymore. The teraflare was many times the size of Dalamud and probably would've been like dropping a small sun on the continent. Which is why I make a distinction between the stated scope of Project Meteor and its actual scope. Its stated scope would've caused a lot of damage, but it wouldn't have been an absolute end. If Louisoix hadn't stopped Bahamut, then we'd have seen something that makes your average genocide look like a walk through the park. This, I suspect, was Emet-Selch's intent -- the complete destruction of Eorzea and its adjacent regions.

It's relevant ot the discussion because you refuse to actually engage with me and just brush off all of my contrary evidence to your idea that the Garlean Empire is apparently more sympathetic than any of the city-states of Eorzean states and that he Eorzean states are predatory in any way toward the Garlean refugees. You refuse to provide sources and invent headcanon to villainize Eorzea to the extent that you can declare the story awful instead of actually judging the story by its own merits and flaws. Even now you call my discussion "pointless" because you don't want to engage with it.

Baseless accusations it is, then. Care to tell me where I referred to the discussion as pointless? Please also show me where I made any sort of inference that the Garlean Empire was not responsible for some truly awful things. What I am doing is observing that Eorzea is not innocent, despite your protestations to the contrary. I am pointing out that just about everything the Garlean Empire did, someone else has done something worse. One of your assertions at the beginning of this discussion was that the Garleans were the worst, as in they had committed far worse atrocities than any other faction. That's it. That's all I have been arguing against the entire time. No one said Eorzea is worse than the Garlean Empire, to my knowledge. You made that inference yourself, although this too is an area where I suspect you are acting in bad faith -- making a statement in the hope of damaging another's credibility in the eyes of whatever minority actually bothers to read these forums, despite knowing that statement is in fact false.

Now then, note the following:
In a debate, it is considered acceptable to not provide sources for common knowledge assertions unless disputing them. None of what I've brought up goes beyond common knowledge in the player-base, save maybe the Autumn War. You do admittedly kinda have to go out of your way to learn about it.

Accusing someone of headcanon doesn't make it true. My positions are based solely on information derived from in-game text, or in some cases officially sanctioned peripheral materials. I form opinions based only on information from these sources. External, which is to say unsanctioned, sources do not interest me and therefore play no role in shaping my view of the game or its story.

You might also note that I haven't really commented much on the story over the course of our discussion other than the initial statement, which was a shot at Stormblood for in my opinion failing to make the Ala Mhigans sympathetic. I'm not sure where your tangent about me wanting to judge the story based on headcanon or what have you instead of its merits and flaws came from, but the position is not supported by the contents of my contribution to this thread. Put bluntly, yes, I dislike Endwalker's story, but uh... Project Meteor and Ala Mhigo kinda have nothing to do with Endwalker at all. In fact, the only thing in this entire discussion between us to have any relevance to Endwalker is the surviving Garleans being reliant on Eorzean aid. My dislike of Endwalker has little to do with the Garleans, although I do feel they should've gotten their own expansion instead of being swept from the board in EW.

[aveyond-dreams]

All I know is that the decision to make "It was Ascians all along!" the underlying hand guiding the Garlean empire cheapened the setting and laid the foundation for what would later become an unsalvageable situation.

At this point I would have gladly traded away Emet and what became of his character for more of a focus on Varis in the story. He was always too similar to Ardyn for my liking but at least Ardyn kept his dignity by the end of FFXV. A fleshed out Varis and other members of the royal family could have helped pave the way for Garlemald pivoting in the direction of Archades but I suppose it was easier to just let Zenos mess the entire country up.

[UkcsAlias]

All I know is that the decision to make "It was Ascians all along!" the underlying hand guiding the Garlean empire cheapened the setting and laid the foundation for what would later become an unsalvageable situation.

"it was zodiark al along"

Before zodiark was summoned there was no need for the garleans.

And zodiark was a paradox on its own. You want to fight the strongest, but if kept in that strongest state, you never would. Either you would die before that (and cause lots of calamities), or you would just prevent the calamities and prevent completion that way. Both would not satisfy. That they found a loophole out of that was at least something (and the build up for that took quite some time). But the situation afterward (which allowed many hazards, well beyond killing its source) seems just irrelevant as the current msq story is about something completely diffirent.

There is lore lacking to truly make the story of EW finished and give a good justification on why certain things werent as the player would expect (there is no restoring of balance, it just suddenly happened). A big sphere containing that much 'aether' is bound to cause imbalances to exist. Even after its creator is dead.

[Absimiliard]

You know, come to think of it, Project Meteor doesn't even make sense from a logistical standpoint. The project was initially cancelled because it fired off a laser capable of destroying everything within a massive radius. They were legit going to just drop this moon instead of using its ability to discharge apocalypse beams. I'm sorry, what? I get why from the perspectives of Emet-Selch, Midas, and Nael, but how did no one else in the upper echelons of the Garlean military not look at this and go, "are ya'll stupid? It's a reusable death laser, wtf, why would you destroy it?"