FFXIV Job Design Feedback

[VentVanitas]

As soon as DNC and MNK get obliterated by godawful design decisions, maybe he'd start paying attention more. Or maybe he'd just hop mains to something else

I've got some bad news LOL. MrHappy has always been fine with how MNK has played and rarely if ever says anything negative about the job, even when it was complete garbage in Shadowbringers. You could probably SMN-ify Monk and he would still play and be fine with it.

[ty_taurus]

Least Serenaya was willing to look at the responses, even if he disagreed with... basically everybody's suggestions. But that's what surveys are for I guess, finding everyone's responses and finding the gems in the dirtpile

When a company gathers data officially, that's exactly what they do. Written feedback does not mean "do exactly as everyone says." As the expert, it's your job to parse through that data and identify key stress points that are generating a negative response. Generally, you'd have a community feedback manager with a small team whose entire job is about collecting all that data, parsing through it, and deliver a report that filters through what aspects should be adjusted in a future update. That should go without saying, I think.

[Sebazy]

Mr Happy rarely says anything negative about the game that Yoshida hasn't already admitted to.

Too afraid of losing that influencer relationship IMO.

[Oizen]

I mean thats the FFXIV community in a nutshell though, if you express any discontent about this game they spit venom really quickly.

[Frodnoxx]

As much as I wish this wasn't the case, what MrHappy said isn't completely untrue. As far as I know, this forum - being the official one - would be the most likely place that any feedback from the community would be taken into consideration by the devs. Now I don't know about JP side, but despite this being the place to go, it feels like the devs very much ignore what goes on here judging by their outgoing communication. Or they say "we hear you, but we're not going to do that," in the live letter. Or it is a passing remark in a Q&A: "Healers don't like their rotation? Hmm. I think I do remember hearing something along those lines before... Anyways." Because of this lack of an outlet of any consequence, the threshold of how much a person must want to voice their feedback before they actually do is much higher.

OP, I really appreciate and support the effort put in to push for feedback to heard. I don't know if it's a language barrier getting in the way, or a culture difference, or a prioritization of communities, but we who want change have to temper our expectations of Square Enix.

[ty_taurus]

Mr Happy rarely says anything negative about the game that Yoshida hasn't already admitted to.

Too afraid of losing that influencer relationship IMO.

Not that he even bothered to look at the thread of course, but it's not like the feedback documents are entirely negative. BLM, RDM, and DRG all have very strong overall reception, and while other jobs tend to have more mixed scores, there are several that still have modes of 10 across the board, like WAR.

[SargeTheSeagull]

Honestly you’d have more luck getting Xeno or arthars to make content about this thread. Happy is good for news but he’s pretty milquetoast about criticizing the game on really any level. Can’t jeopardize his media tour spot after all.

[ForsakenRoe]

As I mentioned previously, I did ask in Arthars' chat but he didn't see the message and I'm not the kind of person to spam it over and over until I get timed out. Xeno might give it a look, no doubt he'd have a great time getting hella mad about people's ideas for the tanks.

Not that he even bothered to look at the thread of course, but it's not like the feedback documents are entirely negative. BLM, RDM, and DRG all have very strong overall reception, and while other jobs tend to have more mixed scores, there are several that still have modes of 10 across the board, like WAR.

Will be interesting to compare DRG to the 7.0 version, wonder if it'll also drop like a rock, like SMN did, or if it'll sort of stay 'ok i guess' like PLD

[ty_taurus]

As I mentioned previously, I did ask in Arthars' chat but he didn't see the message and I'm not the kind of person to spam it over and over until I get timed out. Xeno might give it a look, no doubt he'd have a great time getting hella mad about people's ideas for the tanks.



Will be interesting to compare DRG to the 7.0 version, wonder if it'll also drop like a rock, like SMN did, or if it'll sort of stay 'ok i guess' like PLD

I'm very curious to see the reworks for DRG and AST. I know there's a lot of doubt in how those will turn out, but I have a lot more faith in DRG than I would most other jobs.

[Renathras]

A thread and discussion about a SCH proposal that addresses some/many of the issues raised by SCH feedback to the survey:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-Proposal-SCH

Summary:

Ruin II replaced with Miasma: Instant cast, 400 MP cost, GCD that deals 200 Potency on initial hit (down 20 from current Ruin II), but has a 30 potency DoT for 15 seconds (5 ticks for 150 more, a total of 350 Potency or 55 gain over Broil IV), generates 5 Faerie Gauge per tick (for use on Aetherflow mini-Lustrates or Energy Drains). Useful as a movement tool for a relatively low DPS loss, useful as an upkeep DoT for a marginal gain over Broil IV spam, ideal 4x per min refresh.

Physic upgrades to Adlo: New Adlo has 450 Potency of healing, 120% shield (same 540 size as today), 700 MP cost (same cost as alternating Adlo/Physic casts today) [OPTIONAL: Reduce cast time to 1.5 sec to match Physic.]

Lustrate upgrades into Excogitation, Excogitation CD removed: Excog is now an AF dump and general use spot healing tool, in addition to its delayed use tool, opening it up for a lot of uses.

Dissipation: No longer dismisses Eos/Selene. That's it, and is the most fantastic change in the history of changes.

Aetherpact: Now a mini-Lustrate single target direct heal. Shares Faerie Gauge with Energy Drain, allowing a trade-off between damage and healing, and doesn't lock your Faerie out of other uses. Useable under Seraph now.

Energy Drain decoupled from Aetehrflow: Now costs Faerie Gauge, having a trade-off with the mini-Lustrate Aetherpact instead of locking players out of Soil, Excog, and Indom. More uses with good Miasma uptime, especially in AOE situations.

Whispering Dawn upgrades to Fey Blessing: All this does is add Blessing's AOE heal onto the front of Whispering Dawn's HoT. Simple change. Fey Blessing is now usable under Seraph as well in this new form. (OR combine Illumination with Blessing, but I think Whispering/Blessing is better...)

Broil IV now spreads DoTs from its target to enemy targets within 5y, giving SCH some cleave potential as well as making the AOE rotation even less Art-centric.

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By combining Physic/Adlo, Lustrate/Excog, and Whispering Dawn/Fey Blessing, it frees up a total of 3 Hotbar slots (not a ton, but it's something to fight the scourge of button bloat), it also makes the DPS rotation in both single target and AOE FAR more active than it is today, since you'll be generating a lot more Energy Drains (especially with good Miasma use), actually using Miasma (where Ruin II is often unused), and even mix up the AOE rotation by adding in Biolysis, Miasma, and Broil IV before returning you to your regularly scheduled Art of War spam. Energy Drain becomes a pseudo Thundercloud-ish proc (generated faster by DoT uptime on Miasma) that still trades off with healing (Aetherpact) while not cutting players off from Soil/Excog/Indom. Aetherpact becomes more generally useful. Faerie Gauge becomes a thing you won't just sit on 100 of all the time. And Excogitation becomes a useful AF dump in addition to its general use as a strong spot heal option.

The changes don't significantly change much, and add no new buttons/abilities (other than converting Ruin II into Miasma), but leave SCH with the same general playstyle it has now, but with small additions to make some of its abilities slightly more usable (mainly Aetherpact and Lustrate/Excogitation, Soil and Indom by not having to compete with ED, Adlo to an extent), give a slightly higher skill ceiling (good Miasma uptime might actually lead to a somewhat significant DPS increase if it's kept up all the time and the Faerie Gauge funneled into Energy Drains, but in a general sense, Energy Drain isn't a HUGE damage gain, and Miasma not a HUGE damage gain over Broil, so this doesn't highly gimp players not optimizing those tools while still allowing those that do some room for skill expression), a more engaging single target rotation, a MUCH more engaging AOE rotation, and consolidates some abilities to tamp down on button bloat.

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EDIT2:

Just think about it the way I do: Endwalker's message was 'never give up, even when all hope seems lost', and that one person can be enough. He seems rather ambivalent, and completely fine with 'the Final Days' destroying things re: Jobs, possibly because it's not happened to a job he mains. As soon as DNC and MNK get obliterated by godawful design decisions, maybe he'd start paying attention more. Or maybe he'd just hop mains to something else

Least Serenaya was willing to look at the responses, even if he disagreed with... basically everybody's suggestions. But that's what surveys are for I guess, finding everyone's responses and finding the gems in the dirtpile

A trueism of game design:

Players are VERY good at spotting problems with games.
Players are also VERY bad at coming up with solutions to those problems.

Feedback is useful for finding problems that need addressed, but the reason Devs rarely do what players ask for specifically is because those are usually (not always, but very often) bad ideas. Devs try to take the good ones, or the "good enough" ones and massage them into something workable, but there are as many or more bad ideas for solutions as there are good ones.

That doesn't mean the Devs shouldn't (or don't) listen, it just means the best solution isn't always what players think it should be. Heck, most of the reason MMOs get homogenization - a thing players then complain endlessly about - is because players ASKED for it, either directly or indirectly, over and over again.

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And to be fair, though his initial response was kind of...borderline callous, his point was correct. Not the it being worthless part, but his "the loudest group of people" and how few people are going to go to the forums/that it won't be an accurate representation. He's right about those things.