The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

[Renathras]

First of all,...

Roe has LITERALLY said it I think twice and admitted to it once after proding. Your animosity to me suggesting your one button "compromise" do comparable damage supports that as well - after all, YOU wouldn't care about it doing the same damage if your goal was merely for you to have the option of more buttons to press.

Each of the things I've listed is something someone here has said before.

You need to stop trying the petty 1-upsmanship and just stick with discussion topics. You can, of course, do whatever you want, but...

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As for the SCH suggestion: In that thread, please.

[ty_taurus]

Roe has LITERALLY said it I think twice and admitted to it once after proding. Your animosity to me suggesting your one button "compromise" do comparable damage supports that as well - after all, YOU wouldn't care about it doing the same damage if your goal was merely for you to have the option of more buttons to press.

Each of the things I've listed is something someone here has said before.

You need to stop trying the petty 1-upsmanship and just stick with discussion topics. You can, of course, do whatever you want, but...

.

As for the SCH suggestion: In that thread, please.

First of all, it's not even a question of "wants." An automated system will never have the flexibility and precision that manual play offers. It's impossible. Second of all, why should someone who puts no effort into polishing and practicing their DPS rotation be able to do as much damage or more damage than someone who spends hours practicing? The only point that you should care about is whether or not it's still easy for the average player to clear any content needed to finish any main story or side story questline. The fact that an auto-system would still be enough for extreme and probably savage as well is bonus points.

Unless what you ultimately care about isn't actually the accessibility of the game, but whether or not you can show up other people with a high parse without putting in a fraction of the work that any DPS player has to put in. But that couldn't be true, of course, as I'm sure you'll confirm. If being able to show up people with an effortless parse is not your objective, than you shouldn't have a problem with that concept.

[Renathras]

First of all, it's not even a question of "wants." An automated system will never have the flexibility and precision that manual play offers. It's impossible. Second of all, why should someone who puts no effort into polishing and practicing their DPS rotation be able to do as much damage or more damage than someone who spends hours practicing? The only point that you should care about is whether or not it's still easy for the average player to clear any content needed to finish any main story or side story questline. The fact that an auto-system would still be enough for extreme and probably savage as well is bonus points.

Unless what you ultimately care about isn't actually the accessibility of the game, but whether or not you can show up other people with a high parse without putting in a fraction of the work that any DPS player has to put in. But that couldn't be true, of course, as I'm sure you'll confirm. If being able to show up people with an effortless parse is not your objective, than you shouldn't have a problem with that concept.

/sigh

You're...not making your case.

The fact is, YOU Care about them doing less damage. Meaning that IS a reason you want the change. If you didn't care, then it wouldn't matter to you if the one-button press COULD get them the same damage numbers, as your objective isn't to differentiate damage, it's to alleviate the one-button spam.

The fact that you DO care and oppose them doing the same damage means it ISN'T about alleviating the one-button spam, or at least isn't entirely.

You're trying to turn this on me to avoid that what I said above is right and you calling me a liar was just yet another insult, and I'm tired of going back and forth with you lobbing childish insults. If you wish to keep doing so, that's on you, but I'm going to try to move on from it.

Stop trying so desperately to call me out for TELLING THE TRUTH and you'd get less flack.

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Anyway, I'm done with this line of...I'll charitably call it conversation. I genuinely am curious what you think of the SCH proposal over there. Please pop over in that thread and give it a go. I know you don't like me right now, but I think based on our past conversations it achieves a lot of the objectives you might want out of SCH and could make a good compromise. Even Sebezy kinda likes it. Like...she was pretty nice in her appraisal. Made my evening. ^_^

[ForsakenRoe]

Nah, I know you'd oppose that, too. But at least you'd get your elementalist better-part-of-a-dozen DoTs per minute WHM out of the bargain.
(Half-dozen meaning 15/12 sec Aero duration - 4 or 5 x per min - and Aero III 2-3x per minute, with some Tornado mixed in should get close to a dozen...)

Assuming you're directing this part at me too, I would assume it's aimed at my pitch. I changed Dia to 5 applications per minute. Tornado is a replacement for Dia if you proc it, not an 'as well as'. It replaces Dia on the bar for one cast, as Inner Chaos does for Fell Cleave. Banish is a burst damage ala Phlegma, not a DOT. 'Better part of a dozen' implies to me 'more than half of a dozen', and a dozen is 12. So you'd need 'at least 7' for this to be true, I'm at 5. It's like you saw the bit where I proposed making you press Dia more often and all the rest of the details got skipped

I was wondering though, if I change Dia from a 12s DOT to a burst damage GCD with a 12s CD (and 2 charges why not), does that actually change anything? Is there actually any functional difference between if you have a skill that has a CD, and a DOT with no CD but a 'soft CD' because you can't reapply it for a while? We all meme about how Goring Blade is now just PLD Sonic Break. But Sonic Break's a DOT, Goring isn't anymore. So why DO we meme it? Surely they function differently? No, they don't, they're actually functionally identical in single target. Standalone GCD DOTs like Dia just have the added quirk of being able to be used on multiple enemies at once for potential optimization

TLDR re-read my pitch before you make sweeping statements about it that are easily disproven

Roe has LITERALLY said it I think twice and admitted to it once after proding.

Find some quotes to back this up, I don't remember saying that people should be completely locked out of savage because of a change in gameplay. I do remember saying 'if they somehow are in savage, and can learn savage mechanics, and cannot learn how to use one extra button for their rotation, that does not make sense to me', and that 'if that is somehow true, then they will clear maybe a week or two later because of extra gear'. Not 'I want to make the healer DPS rotation complex enough that people are gatekept out of clearing stuff with no recourse, no hope of being able to clear the fight at all'. I think you interpreted what I said in a weird way, or maybe I just worded it not-great.

But yeh, let me restate it. Example Healer can clear on week 4 now with current healer design. The changes I want get into the game, they cannot learn the new rotation, they play the old way. They clear week 4, because as I have stated multiple times, playing 'the old way' with my WHM design is 98% of the efficiency of the 'optimized, use Banish on CD' way. If we say 'oh they can only get 70% of the efficiency of current WHM', just as a hyperbolic example, then okay, they don't clear week 4. They instead clear week 6. What changes? They still cleared. The mount still gets got. The gear still gets got. They just get it two weeks later, or three weeks later. What's the difference really? 'When' you clear is just ego, and tbh, if it's not week 1 it's not even worth talking about. I cleared P4S week 2, that's sure as hell not worth a damn. Cleared P8S week 3, that's definitely not worth any bragging rights because it was right after the HP nerf. Can't even say 'yeh I cleared it pre-nerf I'm so good at the game'

There is exactly one situation where 'they clear later' is an actual issue, and that's 'getting BIS for Ultimate'. And personally? If I was so delayed on clearing the tier, for so long, that it affects me getting my Ultimate BIS farmed in time, I'd be reconsidering if I belong in Ultimate, because there's clearly room for improvement I need to look into

The fact that you DO care and oppose them doing the same damage means it ISN'T about alleviating the one-button spam, or at least isn't entirely.

I've played some RPGs with 'autobattle' modes. In fact the one that comes to mind right away is SMT4. It can take into account enemy weaknesses and use the right element to gain Press Turns. But it can't take into account non-target enemy strengths, for example. If you have a demon with Bufu and Mabufula, and you fight against a group of enemies where one is weak to Ice and another reflects Ice, it'll use Mabufula (the stronger, and AOE version) on the enemy that is 'weak to ice', hit 'the enemy that reflects Ice' because it's AOE, and hurt yourself. If you did the same example with, say, Mudo and Mamudoon, you'll not just damage yourself, but potentially oneshot yourself with it (Mudo being dark element instakill). I've blown myself up multiple times using Autobattle to grind, only to run across some gobshite demon that reflects Gun (???) and blown myself up faster than I can react to disable Auto mode.

'Autobattle' modes cannot interpret every contextual clue about the absolutely perfectly optimal gameplay decision from moment to moment. Autobattle will not know 'use Energy Drain here because you won't need to heal using that Aetherflow, and raidbuffs are up'. Autobattle will not know 'hold Assize for 4 seconds here, because you will still get it in raidbuffs, you will save a heal GCD by using the heal from Assize instead, and in 48 seconds time there is downtime that will realign the Assize CD with the raidbuff window again'. Autobattle on DPS classes would not know how to do 'Double Solar opener', 'delayed Life' or probably even 'Double Communio'. But since these are all small optimization tricks that would gain any amount of potency, even the tiniest amounts in some cases like Energy Drain, you insist that 'nope, then we can't do that because then the 'auto-mode' is suboptimal'


One final note: my best runs this tier (TW: verboten website)

The crazy part? I don't really pay attention to that whole 'use Misery in raidbuffs' thing like... ever, really. Quite often, I don't use lilies to prep Misery, I use them to heal. I purposely let them overcap to make sure I have them for healing. I am, by anyone's metrics on how to 'optimize WHM' (what little you CAN optimize on the damn thing at this point), absolutely awful. And yet I can get purples, because I know how to press Glare quite a lot.

In fact, here: (TW, another potentially verboten website)

This is the analysis of my first ever clear of P8S, in week 3. Look how many mistakes I made, how bad my DOT uptime is, how I have so much overheal, how I basically forgot that Aquaveil is a skill that exists for most of the fight. And still, we cleared. Better yet, I cleared with a 7/8 static group, who's DRG was actually meant to be DNC before last minute being told they had to melee, getting a set of crafted, and not even finishing the melds. One of his rings had a Grade SIX materia melded because he had run out of everything else. In the log, he's got a zero. And we still cleared. And afterwards we all laughed about how the grade 6 materia was what got us the kill. Every DPS in the run got a grey, in week 3 gear, and we still managed to scrape a clear.

Please stop pearl clutching about how 'the casuals won't know what to do for damage and cause enrages', because gear makes it so so much easier to make those enrage checks. I've never been able to yet, but I want to, at some point, clear a tier week 1 in PF. Because I want to know how hard it is to beat the fight, before gear strips the challenge away layer by layer