The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

[Renathras]

...

Go to that link, think about it.

And no, it isn't.

The reasons have been as varied as "so people won't be bored", "so high end people won't be bored without harming casual players", "so causal players won't be able to 'get carried'", "so 1 button spam isn't a thing", "so skill expression can exist - AND be significant enough to be relevant", "so casual players won't be able to clear high end content", "so healing well can be rewarded with more buttons to press that do damage", "because healing in this game should be DPS primarily and support healing on the side, like an ARPG", and "because the game isn't designed for more healing and so must cater to more damage rotation since we have more damage uptime".

[EDIT: Oh, and that's leaving out the "it's always been this way" and "because the CNJ questline says so" reasons, which have been debunked.]

You're either lying or have a very distorted memory of what people have talked about - or, perhaps, are blind - if you have never seen this.

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Anyway, go read my SCH proposal.

Does that qualify for "forgiving and has a low barrier of entry" that has "more than just that entry point"?

[ty_taurus]

Go to that link, think about it.

And no, it isn't.

The reasons have been as varied as "so people won't be bored", "so high end people won't be bored without harming casual players", "so causal players won't be able to 'get carried'", "so 1 button spam isn't a thing", "so skill expression can exist - AND be significant enough to be relevant", "so casual players won't be able to clear high end content", "so healing well can be rewarded with more buttons to press that do damage", "because healing in this game should be DPS primarily and support healing on the side, like an ARPG", and "because the game isn't designed for more healing and so must cater to more damage rotation since we have more damage uptime".

[EDIT: Oh, and that's leaving out the "it's always been this way" and "because the CNJ questline says so" reasons, which have been debunked.]

You're either lying or have a very distorted memory of what people have talked about - or, perhaps, are blind - if you have never seen this.

.

Anyway, go read my SCH proposal.

Does that qualify for "forgiving and has a low barrier of entry" that has "more than just that entry point"?

First of all, stop saying we are trying to say casual players aren't allowed to clear savage. No one is saying "you aren't allowed to clear savage." The only thing that has been mentioned about what you can and cannot clear is if you dig your heel in the sand and refuse to engage with any new DPS buttons added on principle, something the casual healer would not actually do. That is an extremist angle that has been brought up because of players like you who reject anything that has to do with DPS on healers, and how even with that extremist mindset, not only could you clear virtually everything shy of early savage, but you also probably could still brute force savage that way after a few weeks of gear anyway. What has been said is that you shouldn't effortlessly be able to parse purple or higher because nearly your entire gameplay loop is just 1 button, and the only optimization is using your one or two high damage nukes during buff windows. That's not the requirement of savage. Having a bunch of healers suddenly drop to parsing grey, green, or blue isn't going to stop them from clearing savage if they've already gotten into the rhythm of savage mechanics.

And what's more, my suggestion of having an Auto-battle option would actually give you and others like you a tool that would do most of the work for you without you needing to try. You very likely would be able to clear savage even early on with an auto battle button. Would a skilled manual WHM do better? Probably, but the difference likely wouldn't be the difference between clearing and failing, outside of maybe a handful of rare circumstances where the party dies at 0.1%, but that's also a situation where the entire party is responsible, not just the player.

Anyway, for the SCH suggestion, it ultimately doesn't address the main issue of Broil spam. You will still spam Broil constantly, and that's what many want to see change. That said, there are fine QoL ideas here, like I also think Whispering Dawn should just upgrade into Fey Blessing. I'd like to see the faeries offer different values once more--simple things like more burst healing from Eos and mitigation from Selene, but Fey Blessing feels repetitive currently, and there are also more areas that you could consolidate. The Miasma concept isn't where I'd go, but isn't a bad idea either. There is the small issue Sebazy brought up previously about buff/debuff limits and having multiple DoTs likely isn't something we'll be seeing more of in the future to combat that issue. This is why the scholar discussion that I had in the past about my own ideas toyed with the idea that different attack spells would apply stacks of a single debuff that you could then detonate for one large DoT. But at the end of the day, a change like that could be nice, but not really something that fixes the biggest problem. Like a fresh coat of paint on the fixer-upper that still needs reflooring.

[Renathras]

First of all,...

Roe has LITERALLY said it I think twice and admitted to it once after proding. Your animosity to me suggesting your one button "compromise" do comparable damage supports that as well - after all, YOU wouldn't care about it doing the same damage if your goal was merely for you to have the option of more buttons to press.

Each of the things I've listed is something someone here has said before.

You need to stop trying the petty 1-upsmanship and just stick with discussion topics. You can, of course, do whatever you want, but...

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As for the SCH suggestion: In that thread, please.

[ty_taurus]

Roe has LITERALLY said it I think twice and admitted to it once after proding. Your animosity to me suggesting your one button "compromise" do comparable damage supports that as well - after all, YOU wouldn't care about it doing the same damage if your goal was merely for you to have the option of more buttons to press.

Each of the things I've listed is something someone here has said before.

You need to stop trying the petty 1-upsmanship and just stick with discussion topics. You can, of course, do whatever you want, but...

.

As for the SCH suggestion: In that thread, please.

First of all, it's not even a question of "wants." An automated system will never have the flexibility and precision that manual play offers. It's impossible. Second of all, why should someone who puts no effort into polishing and practicing their DPS rotation be able to do as much damage or more damage than someone who spends hours practicing? The only point that you should care about is whether or not it's still easy for the average player to clear any content needed to finish any main story or side story questline. The fact that an auto-system would still be enough for extreme and probably savage as well is bonus points.

Unless what you ultimately care about isn't actually the accessibility of the game, but whether or not you can show up other people with a high parse without putting in a fraction of the work that any DPS player has to put in. But that couldn't be true, of course, as I'm sure you'll confirm. If being able to show up people with an effortless parse is not your objective, than you shouldn't have a problem with that concept.

[Renathras]

First of all, it's not even a question of "wants." An automated system will never have the flexibility and precision that manual play offers. It's impossible. Second of all, why should someone who puts no effort into polishing and practicing their DPS rotation be able to do as much damage or more damage than someone who spends hours practicing? The only point that you should care about is whether or not it's still easy for the average player to clear any content needed to finish any main story or side story questline. The fact that an auto-system would still be enough for extreme and probably savage as well is bonus points.

Unless what you ultimately care about isn't actually the accessibility of the game, but whether or not you can show up other people with a high parse without putting in a fraction of the work that any DPS player has to put in. But that couldn't be true, of course, as I'm sure you'll confirm. If being able to show up people with an effortless parse is not your objective, than you shouldn't have a problem with that concept.

/sigh

You're...not making your case.

The fact is, YOU Care about them doing less damage. Meaning that IS a reason you want the change. If you didn't care, then it wouldn't matter to you if the one-button press COULD get them the same damage numbers, as your objective isn't to differentiate damage, it's to alleviate the one-button spam.

The fact that you DO care and oppose them doing the same damage means it ISN'T about alleviating the one-button spam, or at least isn't entirely.

You're trying to turn this on me to avoid that what I said above is right and you calling me a liar was just yet another insult, and I'm tired of going back and forth with you lobbing childish insults. If you wish to keep doing so, that's on you, but I'm going to try to move on from it.

Stop trying so desperately to call me out for TELLING THE TRUTH and you'd get less flack.

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Anyway, I'm done with this line of...I'll charitably call it conversation. I genuinely am curious what you think of the SCH proposal over there. Please pop over in that thread and give it a go. I know you don't like me right now, but I think based on our past conversations it achieves a lot of the objectives you might want out of SCH and could make a good compromise. Even Sebezy kinda likes it. Like...she was pretty nice in her appraisal. Made my evening. ^_^

[ForsakenRoe]

Nah, I know you'd oppose that, too. But at least you'd get your elementalist better-part-of-a-dozen DoTs per minute WHM out of the bargain.
(Half-dozen meaning 15/12 sec Aero duration - 4 or 5 x per min - and Aero III 2-3x per minute, with some Tornado mixed in should get close to a dozen...)

Assuming you're directing this part at me too, I would assume it's aimed at my pitch. I changed Dia to 5 applications per minute. Tornado is a replacement for Dia if you proc it, not an 'as well as'. It replaces Dia on the bar for one cast, as Inner Chaos does for Fell Cleave. Banish is a burst damage ala Phlegma, not a DOT. 'Better part of a dozen' implies to me 'more than half of a dozen', and a dozen is 12. So you'd need 'at least 7' for this to be true, I'm at 5. It's like you saw the bit where I proposed making you press Dia more often and all the rest of the details got skipped

I was wondering though, if I change Dia from a 12s DOT to a burst damage GCD with a 12s CD (and 2 charges why not), does that actually change anything? Is there actually any functional difference between if you have a skill that has a CD, and a DOT with no CD but a 'soft CD' because you can't reapply it for a while? We all meme about how Goring Blade is now just PLD Sonic Break. But Sonic Break's a DOT, Goring isn't anymore. So why DO we meme it? Surely they function differently? No, they don't, they're actually functionally identical in single target. Standalone GCD DOTs like Dia just have the added quirk of being able to be used on multiple enemies at once for potential optimization

TLDR re-read my pitch before you make sweeping statements about it that are easily disproven

Roe has LITERALLY said it I think twice and admitted to it once after proding.

Find some quotes to back this up, I don't remember saying that people should be completely locked out of savage because of a change in gameplay. I do remember saying 'if they somehow are in savage, and can learn savage mechanics, and cannot learn how to use one extra button for their rotation, that does not make sense to me', and that 'if that is somehow true, then they will clear maybe a week or two later because of extra gear'. Not 'I want to make the healer DPS rotation complex enough that people are gatekept out of clearing stuff with no recourse, no hope of being able to clear the fight at all'. I think you interpreted what I said in a weird way, or maybe I just worded it not-great.

But yeh, let me restate it. Example Healer can clear on week 4 now with current healer design. The changes I want get into the game, they cannot learn the new rotation, they play the old way. They clear week 4, because as I have stated multiple times, playing 'the old way' with my WHM design is 98% of the efficiency of the 'optimized, use Banish on CD' way. If we say 'oh they can only get 70% of the efficiency of current WHM', just as a hyperbolic example, then okay, they don't clear week 4. They instead clear week 6. What changes? They still cleared. The mount still gets got. The gear still gets got. They just get it two weeks later, or three weeks later. What's the difference really? 'When' you clear is just ego, and tbh, if it's not week 1 it's not even worth talking about. I cleared P4S week 2, that's sure as hell not worth a damn. Cleared P8S week 3, that's definitely not worth any bragging rights because it was right after the HP nerf. Can't even say 'yeh I cleared it pre-nerf I'm so good at the game'

There is exactly one situation where 'they clear later' is an actual issue, and that's 'getting BIS for Ultimate'. And personally? If I was so delayed on clearing the tier, for so long, that it affects me getting my Ultimate BIS farmed in time, I'd be reconsidering if I belong in Ultimate, because there's clearly room for improvement I need to look into

The fact that you DO care and oppose them doing the same damage means it ISN'T about alleviating the one-button spam, or at least isn't entirely.

I've played some RPGs with 'autobattle' modes. In fact the one that comes to mind right away is SMT4. It can take into account enemy weaknesses and use the right element to gain Press Turns. But it can't take into account non-target enemy strengths, for example. If you have a demon with Bufu and Mabufula, and you fight against a group of enemies where one is weak to Ice and another reflects Ice, it'll use Mabufula (the stronger, and AOE version) on the enemy that is 'weak to ice', hit 'the enemy that reflects Ice' because it's AOE, and hurt yourself. If you did the same example with, say, Mudo and Mamudoon, you'll not just damage yourself, but potentially oneshot yourself with it (Mudo being dark element instakill). I've blown myself up multiple times using Autobattle to grind, only to run across some gobshite demon that reflects Gun (???) and blown myself up faster than I can react to disable Auto mode.

'Autobattle' modes cannot interpret every contextual clue about the absolutely perfectly optimal gameplay decision from moment to moment. Autobattle will not know 'use Energy Drain here because you won't need to heal using that Aetherflow, and raidbuffs are up'. Autobattle will not know 'hold Assize for 4 seconds here, because you will still get it in raidbuffs, you will save a heal GCD by using the heal from Assize instead, and in 48 seconds time there is downtime that will realign the Assize CD with the raidbuff window again'. Autobattle on DPS classes would not know how to do 'Double Solar opener', 'delayed Life' or probably even 'Double Communio'. But since these are all small optimization tricks that would gain any amount of potency, even the tiniest amounts in some cases like Energy Drain, you insist that 'nope, then we can't do that because then the 'auto-mode' is suboptimal'


One final note: my best runs this tier (TW: verboten website)

The crazy part? I don't really pay attention to that whole 'use Misery in raidbuffs' thing like... ever, really. Quite often, I don't use lilies to prep Misery, I use them to heal. I purposely let them overcap to make sure I have them for healing. I am, by anyone's metrics on how to 'optimize WHM' (what little you CAN optimize on the damn thing at this point), absolutely awful. And yet I can get purples, because I know how to press Glare quite a lot.

In fact, here: (TW, another potentially verboten website)

This is the analysis of my first ever clear of P8S, in week 3. Look how many mistakes I made, how bad my DOT uptime is, how I have so much overheal, how I basically forgot that Aquaveil is a skill that exists for most of the fight. And still, we cleared. Better yet, I cleared with a 7/8 static group, who's DRG was actually meant to be DNC before last minute being told they had to melee, getting a set of crafted, and not even finishing the melds. One of his rings had a Grade SIX materia melded because he had run out of everything else. In the log, he's got a zero. And we still cleared. And afterwards we all laughed about how the grade 6 materia was what got us the kill. Every DPS in the run got a grey, in week 3 gear, and we still managed to scrape a clear.

Please stop pearl clutching about how 'the casuals won't know what to do for damage and cause enrages', because gear makes it so so much easier to make those enrage checks. I've never been able to yet, but I want to, at some point, clear a tier week 1 in PF. Because I want to know how hard it is to beat the fight, before gear strips the challenge away layer by layer

[AmiableApkallu]

The only thing that has been mentioned about what you can and cannot clear is if you dig your heel in the sand and refuse to engage with any new DPS buttons added on principle, something the casual healer would not actually do.

This is worth re-iterating. My experience, my two cents... A "casual" player -- healer or otherwise -- isn't someone who turns their brain off entirely. It's actually the opposite. They know how to clear out their hotbars and how to re-add abilities one by one. They can identify combos. They can identify how to build their gauge, if applicable. They can identify how to spend their gauge, if applicable. They ask: Why did the game give me this button? When is a good time to use it?

The difference with a hardcore, week 1, world-first raider is... Well, I imagine, the casual player doesn't take a "global" view of their abilities. For example, I, personally, know how to collect stickers on SAM and cast Iaijutsu into Tsubame-gaeshi, and Ikishoten seems like a good button to hit every two minutes, and hopefully I don't overcap on Kenki! Etc. But I'm not sure I could work out SAM's two-minute burst and corresponding two-minute rotation on my own. (But that's also completely unnecessary for running daily roulettes.)

[Aravell]

This is worth re-iterating. My experience, my two cents... A "casual" player -- healer or otherwise -- isn't someone who turns their brain off entirely. It's actually the opposite. They know how to clear out their hotbars and how to re-add abilities one by one. They can identify combos. They can identify how to build their gauge, if applicable. They can identify how to spend their gauge, if applicable. They ask: Why did the game give me this button? When is a good time to use it?

Quite a few people seem to conflate being casual with being bad, but that's just wrong.

I have a friend that ticks all the boxes of being a casual. He's often gone for several tiers at once, he doesn't play that much. But he occasionally comes back and asks to play with us, he then logs 99 on every fight of the tier then he's gone again. By all metrics, he's a casual, yet he's able to play better than most people. There's no reason to assume all casual players are bad at the game and will never improve.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

This is worth re-iterating. My experience, my two cents... A "casual" player -- healer or otherwise -- isn't someone who turns their brain off entirely. It's actually the opposite. They know how to clear out their hotbars and how to re-add abilities one by one. They can identify combos. They can identify how to build their gauge, if applicable. They can identify how to spend their gauge, if applicable. They ask: Why did the game give me this button? When is a good time to use it?[...]

When people speak of 'casual', I think of it as a more of the pace they choose to progress at something they're engaging with, at least accounting to my own experience.